Gale Banks is off his rocker!

[RustyJC]

It was the ability to run the extra displacement and still achieve 9800 RPM (see above) that led to the engine's dominant performance. The engine had more horsepower and torque than the smaller cammers.



Rusty

 

[Sled Puller]

9800rpm, and what were the other engines turning that year?

 

[RustyJC]

The point is, Ilmor's design was successful because the displacement advantage greatly outweighed the less-than-anticipated RPM penalty. Traditional pushrod designs weren't anticipated by the rulemakers to run RPM this close to the cammers; thus, Ilmor took advantage of the loophole by designing a "pushrod" (in name only) engine that could rev much higher than the traditional pushrod engines and still take advantage of the greater displacement. The differentiation between the Ilmor pushrod engine and the other pushrod designs of the same displacement was the Ilmor's ability to rev higher for 500 miles.



The previous year's winning DOHC engine achieved peak horsepower at 11,000 RPM, not that much greater than the Ilmor's 9800 RPM. Again, from Penske's website:

1993 Penske PC-22



1993 Indianapolis 500 Winner

Driven By: Emerson Fittipaldi

Engine: Ilmor Chevy DOHC V8

Horsepower: 720 @ 11,000 RPM

Penske Racing's 9th Indianapolis 500 win.

Note the horsepower advantage of the larger 1994 Ilmor pushrod engine over the 1993 Ilmor "cammer".



Rusty

 

[JasonCzerak]

there's no replacement for displacement



Now, figure how much more HP the bigger motor would make if the torque curve was to grow the same to 11,000 rpm. . 900hp? 950hp?



More torque, more HP at a given RPM.



rusty, can you post some gearing specs? I'm sure the gear boxes and rear ends were not the same with the higher RPM "cammer" motors either.

 

[JoshPeters]

The point is, Ilmor's design was successful because the displacement advantage greatly outweighed the less-than-anticipated RPM penalty. Traditional pushrod designs weren't anticipated by the rulemakers to run RPM this close to the cammers; thus, Ilmor took advantage of the loophole by designing a "pushrod" (in name only) engine that could rev much higher than the traditional pushrod engines and still take advantage of the greater displacement. The differentiation between the Ilmor pushrod engine and the other pushrod designs of the same displacement was the Ilmor's ability to rev higher for 500 miles.



The previous year's winning DOHC engine achieved peak horsepower at 11,000 RPM, not that much greater than the Ilmor's 9800 RPM. Again, from Penske's website:





Note the horsepower advantage of the larger 1994 Ilmor pushrod engine over the 1993 Ilmor "cammer".



Rusty

Last time I checked, at that kind of RPM, GAINING 1200rpm is ALOT! If you don't think that's a big deal, you sadly mistaken. Think about the laws of physics involved here! If it wasn't "that much greater than 9800" then why didn't they do it?

 

[RustyJC]

Last time I checked, at that kind of RPM, GAINING 1200rpm is ALOT! If you don't think that's a big deal, you sadly mistaken. Think about the laws of physics involved here! If it wasn't "that much greater than 9800" then why didn't they do it?

I would suggest that you read my posts again as they relate to the Penske/Ilmor "pushrod" engine. The point I stated repeatedly is:

Ilmor's design was successful because the displacement advantage greatly outweighed the less-than-anticipated RPM penalty.

I am in technical management (and have been for 28+ years) with an engine manufacturer, so I'm quite aware of the laws of physics as they relate to engine design. I'm just saying that (to pick numbers out of the air) if I can get a 30% displacement advantage with a 10% RPM penalty, I'll take that every day - as did Penske/Ilmor.



Rusty

 

[JoshPeters]

I understand that, but as Gene put it... what was the increase in Torque as well?

 

[RustyJC]

The Ilmor "pushrod" engine had more torque and more horsepower than the cammers. That's why it dominated.



Rusty

 

[Sled Puller]

I think Rusty is making my point- we just disagree on which part of the advantage was actually the advantage!!LOL



I was trying to find out what the competition was making the same year, but all I could come up was 2002, and a lot changes in 8 years, which was-Ford Cosworth





Engine Type-Turbocharged Aluminum V-8



Displacement-2. 65 Liters 161. 7 Cubic Inches



Horespower-Over 800 @ 37 Inches Of Boost



Torque-Over 300 Ft-Lbs



Max RPM-Over 16,500(I'm sure it was less in 94)





I was at that race, and while I can't say what rpm those cars were running, I am fairly certain the rpm was quite a bit higher than 1200 from the Mercedes to the competition.

They had a totally different sound almost like-oh say it aint so- NASCAR!! They were just chugging along,(in comparison) putting seconds on the pack every lap.

 

[RustyJC]

The closest comparison I could find was the 1993 Ilmor DOHC Chevy V-8 that produced 720 BHP @ 11,000 RPM - this was the year prior to the 1994 Ilmor "Pushrod" Mercedes that produced 800 BHP @ 9,800 RPM. The Ilmor "pushrod" Mercedes only competed in 1994 - it was regulated to death after that year, and Ilmor returned to a cammer approach.



From Ilmor's website:

Founded by Mario Illien and the late Paul Morgan, in partnership with Roger Penske, Ilmor Engineering's first project was the all-conquering Chevrolet Indy V8 engine, which dominated IndyCar racing from 1986 through 1993. Setting new standards for light weight, high horsepower and reliability, the Chevy Indy V8 achieved unprecedented success in America's most technically demanding racing series.



Ilmor's most innovative IndyCar engine was the Mercedes-Benz 500i, developed in a top-secret 50-week program specifically for the 1994 Indy 500. The most powerful engine ever to race at Indy, the 500i totally dominated the month of May, with Penske driver Al Unser, Jr. taking the pole and winning the race in a breeze. Ilmor's Mercedes IC108 took the CART manufacturers' championship in 1997, while Helio Castroneves won the 2001 and 2002 Indy 500s with Ilmor-developed GM-power.

Rusty

 

[Sled Puller]

Outlawed the day after the race-somebody was very very cranky!!!!!LOL

 

[EMD-Run8]

Yep, there was GREAT in-car shot of one of the Mercedes cars jumping out of the draft to the inside out of a turn. The Mercedes car absolutely SHOT past the car it was drafting. The Audi R10 does nearly the same thing off turns. Or at least it did before the gasser crowd starting crying about gettin' smoked.

 

[Sled Puller]

HP, or Torque? My votes sweet torque!!Heheheh

 

[EMD-Run8]

Torque

 

[UP N MTNS]

He said that he wants to see all the diesel V8's turn 7,000 RPMS. Yes 7,000 rpms, now in the sled pulling world sure, but on the street? Don't get me started on how much of an idiot this guy is.

Over on a VW TDI site http://www.tdiclub.com/ there seems to be more then a few guys with Touareg's V-10 diesels claming RPM's in the range of 5500-6500 with out any problems... . Times are a changing, It wasnt to long ago that a non turbo diesel blazer made nice Trq



I love how everyone here beats up on Gale Banks???? I'll agree he doesnt have much if any presense in the pulling world or straight line racing world... But he sell's more diesel preformance product then any other company out there,they are huge. . So he/Banks must be doing something right... IMO





And yes I have BANKS stuff on my truck and love it putting fire suit on now... .

 

[Tomscreek]

Well, I like TORK !!!

 

[NJones]

I too have some Banks stuff on one of my trucks. I think it is overpriced.

 

[Huskerman]

I certainly wouldn't flame somebody because they choose to put an accessory on their truck! Well, not unless we are having a "hide it from the dealer discussion" anyway.



What I can't understand is the desire of truck manufacturers (most likely due to customer demand) to turn our trucks into race-cars. What's the point? If people want a 500 HP truck, why can't they just buy the Hemi and chip it or the current truck and chip it???



I got a diesel for the torque and the fuel economy. I am already getting considerably less mpg because people asked for a 325 HP truck. I hope Mr. Banks is wrong on this one.

 

[JasonCzerak]

I certainly wouldn't flame somebody because they choose to put an accessory on their truck! Well, not unless we are having a "hide it from the dealer discussion" anyway.



What I can't understand is the desire of truck manufacturers (most likely due to customer demand) to turn our trucks into race-cars. What's the point? If people want a 500 HP truck, why can't they just buy the Hemi and chip it or the current truck and chip it???



I got a diesel for the torque and the fuel economy. I am already getting considerably less mpg because people asked for a 325 HP truck. I hope Mr. Banks is wrong on this one.

why can't a diesel be a hot rod?

 

[Huskerman]

why can't a diesel be a hot rod?

I never said they can't. If you want to chip your truck and make it a dragstrip monster, more power to you!



Wrenchin' on trucks is a hobby for a lot of folks and I get that. I just don't see why Detroit insists on making ALL of them hotrods. I mean jeesh, might as well get rid of the 4 wheel drive and lower them while they are at it!



Huskerman