Injury with Catalyst full, time to give back

[Jefff929]

call a taxi

Wow, there it is again. Maybe in Minneapolis, but try that where I live :-laf you are in for a long wait and you are one of the ones preaching "judgment and common sense?" good luck with that. You big city folk are so clueless it is just freaking amazing, you desperately need education in redneck studies or survival out of the hood. I bet you think a CB is a toy too.

 

[JasonCzerak]

Wow, there it is again. Maybe in Minneapolis, but try that where I live :-laf you are in for a long wait and you are one of the ones preaching "judgment and common sense?" good luck with that. You big city folk are so clueless it is just freaking amazing, you desperately need education in redneck studies or survival out of the hood. I bet you think a CB is a toy too.

CB's are the best radar radar detectors I've ever used.



How far north are you on the pacific side there?

 

[Jefff929]

80 miles south of Portland. You would think with Albany, Corvallis, and Eugene right here we could catch a cab. It just doesn't happen. Last year Mr. Kim learned that Onstar doesn't work down by Roseburg, his price was his life. This isn't exactly the sticks but it is not down town.

Can you get a cab in Alexandria MN? sometimes it is easier to walk 1. 5 miles in the snow to get home.

 

[JasonCzerak]

80 miles south of Portland. You would think with Albany, Corvallis, and Eugene right here we could catch a cab. It just doesn't happen. Last year Mr. Kim learned that Onstar doesn't work down by Roseburg, his price was his life. This isn't exactly the sticks but it is not down town.



Can you get a cab in Alexandria MN? sometimes it is easier to walk 1. 5 miles in the snow to get home.

Cab is a suggestion. Friend? Family member? If you older and you have someone with health issues already. Why not call 911 and see what happens? This gentleman was at a store, they could go in there and keep warm until a ride arrived. In his situation as he explained it, there were much better choices to be had in my opinion .



Frankly, when it's -10 with 45 mph winds (as we had over Christmas if you were near the Iowa border on i-35 as we were, I'd stay put and call 911. I'm sure every one of the 200+ cars that ran off the road did just that.



If my cell didn't have signal and there was no road traffic to wave a good samaritan down. Naturally, you'd have to go for a walk. In these conditions, you're chances are rather rare you make it very far with out some major arctic clothing. How many carry more then a blanket around with them? heh.



There is no having to be a redneck to understand how to survive. And honestly, that's rather insulting. If you wanna go that route there, Why don't you come to the wanna be "hood" of Minneapolis and see how long you survive there in the northside. Better yet, take a vacation in Detroit (they have t-shirts you can get if you last a week), or NY, or LA.



They have their differences, that's for sure. Just use was resources you have at your disposal to get the job done.

 

[TKeeler]

Getting Worse Instead of Better

This thread sure went south... . :-{}



I have had my truck now for 8 months. First 6 months went pretty well just a couple of ETC warning lights... not sure why they stopped. Since I had the G30 recall done in late November I can't keep the Check Engine Light off. Went back in last Friday with the P242b code and they reflashed with the 'AW' update. The Check Engine Light came on again Thursday, my DashHawk says its another P242 but doesn't give me the last letter. When I try to get the code from the odometer all I get is a dotted line and 'done', no code. So I cleared the code with the DashHawk yesterday but anticipate it being on again here shortly.



If this continues this will be someone elses truck by the time the warranty runs out and I will be done with Dodge trucks. I am not going to drive to the service center every month. #@$%!



If Dodge values their repeat truck buyers they had better be thinking about extending the warranty on these trucks until they get them to work correctly, I'm nervous as hell that the resale value is gonna tank because of these problems.

 

[catoiler]

This thread sure went south... . :-{}



I have had my truck now for 8 months. First 6 months went pretty well just a couple of ETC warning lights... not sure why they stopped. Since I had the G30 recall done in late November I can't keep the Check Engine Light off. Went back in last Friday with the P242b code and they reflashed with the 'AW' update. The Check Engine Light came on again Thursday, my DashHawk says its another P242 but doesn't give me the last letter. When I try to get the code from the odometer all I get is a dotted line and 'done', no code. So I cleared the code with the DashHawk yesterday but anticipate it being on again here shortly.



If this continues this will be someone elses truck by the time the warranty runs out and I will be done with Dodge trucks. I am not going to drive to the service center every month. #@$%!



If Dodge values their repeat truck buyers they had better be thinking about extending the warranty on these trucks until they get them to work correctly, I'm nervous as hell that the resale value is gonna tank because of these problems.

I Could not have said it any better!! I am just about to my whits end with this thing! The traction control light comming on and it hesatating on take off and the garbage milage are never ending,best this thing gets is 9. 1 around town no matter how I drive!!#@$%!

 

[HBarlow]

I don't mean to try to minimize the disappointment and frustration some of you are feeling with your new trucks, I'm sure I would be frustrated also. I will try to put it in perspective.



Your trucks are the first year of an entirely new engine that is not only a new and different engine but is using new and very sophisticated components and software to meet very demanding 2010 emissions standards. Everyone who bought one should have been aware that it was all new and very complicated and there was a possibility of some problems.



It is my understanding that Ford and GM are not even trying to meet 2010 emission standards yet. Cummins is the only engine currently meeting them in a domestic pickup I think. I heard, don't know if it is accurate, that Freightliner has quit offering MB diesel engines in their Business Class trucks because they were not meeting new emission standards and were having major problems, not just driveability issues. Can anyone correct me on any of this? Please do if I am wrong. Ford and GM probably both face huge challenges in getting their engines to meet 2010 standards and who knows or can predict what kind of driveability problems their engines might face when they do introduce them.



I haven't heard of a single 2007. 5 Dodge-Cummins that has suffered a turbo failure, multiple or repeat injector problems, leaking or failed head gaskets, or any other major component failures. The electronic module failures that I am aware of have been few and far between.



The problem I have read of, although certainly frustrating to owners, is simply driveability issues and setting codes. I think those are simply software programming issues and I feel confident they will be resolved over time. Robert Patton, TDR founder and editor, wrote in the recent TDR magazine that he expected the minor software issues and reflashes to continue for a while. It is growing pains. Disappointing but probably inevitable. If you are angry blame the blow-dried empty suits in Congress who enacted the stupid legislation that demands the unreasonable emissions standards, not the engine manufacturers who are struggling to comply.



Dealers are probably completely ignorant and frustrated also because they probably have no guidance yet from Cummins how to resolve the complaints you guys are taking to them.



I expect Cummins engineers and technicians are working overtime trying to resolve all the issues you guys are facing. The reliability of our engines is, after all, their bread and butter. If they fail they'll be out of work.



I was in Columbus, IN in July of 2002 to attend the TDR rally at the Cummins Mid Range Engine Plant just before the new 2003 Gen III Rams with HPCR engines were introduced. If my memory serves, Cummins had three new 2003 Dodge Ram trucks with trailers hooked up with false fronts on them designed to push the wind, simulating a big box trailer, and the trailers were loaded to GCWRs of the trucks. They were running around Indiana night and day three shifts per day in order to run up 100,000 miles as quickly as possibile to test their reliability prior to launch. Dodge and Cummins do their best to test those trucks and engines before they introduce them to the market. I saw it with my own eyes. I have complete confidence in Cummins, Inc. to get it right.



I would guess that it is simply impossible to test new engines, new trucks, and new emission control systems like every driver uses them. They run them hard, fully loaded, 24 hours a day to test them as quickly as possible under the harshest conditions. It would not be reasonable or possible to hold the new trucks/engines off the market for five years or more while engineers drive them 5, 10, 20 miles per day to work or to the grocery store as some members actually use their trucks.



Long before I bought a new Dodge Cummins in 2001 I knew that I didn't want a diesel-powered truck to drive to work and back in the city. As some of youi said, there are no warnings in the owner's manual not to use them like that but commons sense should tell us that a big, thick, heavy cast iron block warms slowly and will not reach normal operating temperature in a short trip to the grocery store or to the office. It takes a huge amount of electrical current to heat the intake grids then turn one of our engines over in colder climates in the winter. Short trips to shop or to the office will not even keep the batteries charged. Our trucks are work trucks, not city commuter cars.



Let's be patient. I am confident that Cummins will issue recalls and reflashes to correct the minor glitches some of you are experiencing. Your dealers, Dodge, and Cummins have not denied you are experiencing a problem or tried to ignore you I don't think.



EB, our TDR member who has a 2007 3500 chassis cab and uses it as an oilfield hotshotter already has 100k miles on his truck and the only problem he has reported is one minor module failure and a wrong reflash by a technician who apparently didn't know the software for a C&C was different than a pickup.



Let's be patient. Your Cummins engines are not 6. 0 Fords. Don't panic.



I wish all of you well.



Harvey

 

[rbattelle]

It is my understanding that Ford and GM are not even trying to meet 2010 emission standards yet. Cummins is the only engine currently meeting them in a domestic pickup I think.

I can confirm this is true. Cummins is the only engine manufacturer on Earth offering an engine in any size class in any application that meets 2010 emissions requirements TODAY. And that without SCR (Selective Catalytic Reduction). The magnitude of this should not be underestimated.
-On Edit- Does the new GE EVO locomotive meet 2010 emissions?

A remarkable achievement - one that weighed heavily in their winning Diesel Progress' "Newsmaker of the Year" for 2007.

Whether this excuses Cummins from "teething" problems is a matter of opinion. I, personally, don't know.

They were running around Indiana night and day three shifts per day in order to run up 100,000 miles as quickly as possibile to test their reliability prior to launch.

Just a quick side observation...
Ironically, they failed to catch the poor lift pump design with this testing. That implies the filter-mounted lift pumps fail on a temporal schedule rather than a mileage schedule.

In fact, this kind of testing - accumulate as much mileage as fast as possible - is likely to miss a lot of temporally-based failure modes.

Ryan

 

[TKeeler]

I don't doubt that Dodge & Cummins did thousands and thousands of miles of testing as the trucks overall quality shows very well. Some have spent $50,000 plus on these trucks and I for one feel that when a person spends that much $$ that it needs to be right. My point was that with each reflash I am seeing more warning lights instead of less so tell me that is an improvement and I got so ocean front land in Wyoming I will sell you.



Like I have said before there is far more about this truck that I like than I dislike, I'm just disappointed with the lack of information we are getting about the emissions system. It's too bad that we have to learn how they work on this message board and not get the answers straight from Dodge or Cummins. It's a little disheartening to take your truck to the dealer for service and you quiet possibly know more than the service tech.



I would feel considerably better if all this software reflashing was covered beyond the 36/36 warranty... am I right in that its only covered 3 years or 36,000 miles? I don't purchase vehicles to drive two years than trade them off so I wan't something that's not gonna nickel and dime me to death after the warranty is out.

 

[Loren]

Harvey,



Thanks for a calm, more reasonable reply to what has become an emotional thread for some. I still disagree with several of your points, however.



My personal perspective, as an owner of a new 2008 (about 500 miles now), is that I don't care if my truck meets 2010 emissions standards. I just need it to meet 2008 standards so I can buy it. And, more importantly, I REALLY don't want it to meet 2010 standards if it means I will have trouble with the truck.



You point out that very few of our trucks are experiencing "serious" problems like turbo failures, injector problems, or failed head gaskets. That's true; but when your truck won't run and leaves you stranded, do you really care that its "just" a computer problem? My roommate in college was studying electrical engineering. I took civil engineering. He often said he made the wrong choice, because when a bridge falls down at least you can see what's wrong.



You're also right when you say that common sense should teach us that these engines won't warm up in a five-mile drive to the store and back. In the past, all that meant was that your engine might wear out in half the time it normally would have if you had warmed it up properly. It didn't mean that after a few months of these trips your truck wouldn't run at all. There's a difference between shortening your engine's life because of your driving style and causing your truck to fail.



The complaint here seems to be: If there are improper ways to drive this truck, tell me in the manual. Otherwise, I can expect it to run under all driving scenarios. Every airplane I ever flew had prohibited maneuvers. If you did them anyway, you became a test pilot. Most of us don't want to be test pilots for Dodge. I expect that they would have done that testing before they sold me the truck.



In spite of the above, you and I agree on at least two things. First, we agree that Dodge and Cummins are doing everything they can to get these trucks to work. It just hasn't happened yet.



Our other agreement can be summarized by this quote from Mark Twain: "Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress... . But then I repeat myself. ”



Loren

 

[catoiler]

If they wanted beta testers then why did they not offer them to us at a discount to make up for the trouble just as the after market does? My truck will reach 160* in about 5 minutes and that is at about 29*

"The problem I have read of, although certainly frustrating to owners, is simply driveability issues and setting codes. I think those are simply software programming issues and I feel confident they will be resolved over time. " Ok Then you drive my truck and when you take off and the traction light comes on and it stumbles with no throttle for about 3-4 seconds and you almost get hit let me know how simple a matter it is. I to love this truck but the problems between this and my 03 are no compairson. The 03 was only rear difff,trans and a/c problems never did it put me in a position to get in a accident. Then their is the fuel milage,their is about the same number saying they get upwards of 17 and the others that are like mine just in the double digits 9-12. I live in that dump of a state California so I know all about who to blame for the EPA garbage!

 

[RVTRKN]

I've said this before and I'll say it again, the reason I believe the DPF issues (100% cat full), is Dodge used smaller DPF's than the C&C DPF. That should be Dodge's target on fixing this problem. There are no issues with the C&C DPF and as member DB (100K plus) has posted as well as all the others with the C&C trucks are not having this problem. I wonder if you can fit the C&C DPF on the reg. pickup and it work properly. If I had the reg. pickup I think I would try that and see if that would work. The other issue would be the HP per the soot, you know, the more HP the more smoke and then more particles produced.



I think that Dodge needs to show customers something is being done besides the software programing that is not working. That is the only fault I give Dodge on this problem. The C&C I own is better than the 04. 5 I have and I do not regret buying the 6. 7 C&C, but if I had the reg pickup I cant say if I would have the same opinion.



I smell a class action lawsuit on this, and as organized as TDR members are, I'm surprized nobody has mentioned that.

 

[JasonCzerak]

I've said this before and I'll say it again, the reason I believe the DPF issues (100% cat full), is Dodge used smaller DPF's than the C&C DPF. That should be Dodge's target on fixing this problem. There are no issues with the C&C DPF and as member DB (100K plus) has posted as well as all the others with the C&C trucks are not having this problem. I wonder if you can fit the C&C DPF on the reg. pickup and it work properly. If I had the reg. pickup I think I would try that and see if that would work. The other issue would be the HP per the soot, you know, the more HP the more smoke and then more particles produced.



I think that Dodge needs to show customers something is being done besides the software programing that is not working. That is the only fault I give Dodge on this problem. The C&C I own is better than the 04. 5 I have and I do not regret buying the 6. 7 C&C, but if I had the reg pickup I cant say if I would have the same opinion.



I smell a class action lawsuit on this, and as organized as TDR members are, I'm surprized nobody has mentioned that.

You fail to notice that EB uses his truck. It's not a grocery getter like the majority of the non - C&C trucks.

 

[Bob4x4]

There are MANY diffs between the C/C and the p/up... ... ... ... ... .



Bob

 

[HBarlow]

I smell a class action lawsuit on this, and as organized as TDR members are, I'm surprized nobody has mentioned that.

When I smell the phrase "class action lawsuit" I smell the foul odor of slimy ambulance-chasing lawyers running around looking for a big corporation with deep pockets they can sue, not because the large corporation, which is actually owned my hundreds or thousands of ordinary Americans in the form of stocks held by their own investment/retirement funds or in their pension funds, has done anything intentionally negligent or wrong but because the slimy lawyer can sue and possible win and pocket a large sum of someone else's money. I also smell the foul odor of lots of greedy individuals pretending to be wronged or exaggerating a minor problem, looking to sue someone in order to "get something for nothing. " The phrase "class action lawsuit" smells very bad to me. I am embarrassed when I see the phrase thrown around lightly because I know that nobody wins in such a case. Personally, I don't see any reason why Dodge should be sued at this point. I know that if such a lawsuit should actually be filed and actually go to court, which is extremely unlikely, everyone involved would lose. Those who filed suit and avoided possible corrective repairs on their trucks would lose, and everyone else who ever buys a Dodge would lose by paying higher prices for future repairs and for new cars and trucks. The only people who benefit from such lawsuits are the slimy ambulance chasing attorneys who win the suit and take half of the proceeds before they split the remainder of any judgement collected with the dozens, hundreds, thousands, or even millions of participants.



A more reasonable approach, it would seem to me, would be to take the truck back to the selling dealer whenever a problem occurs and in a reasonable tone, intelligently discuss the symptom with the service writer and technician with the understanding that no one, not Cummins, not Dodge, not the manufacturer's regional staff, not the selling Dodge dealer, and not the service department wants these vehicles to be problematic. I'd remind myself that everyone is trying to do their best to resolve the problems because nobody takes pleasure in having a new vehicle that is experiencing problems. I'd also remind myself that I possibly share at least a little in the responsibility for my problem because I bought a first year product of amazing complexity without stopping to realize that it might not be perfect.



Harvey

 

[Jdonoghue]

Start sending letters to the EPA and thanking them, be sure to notate the loss of economy.

I'm going to start sending invoices to them :-laf

 

[catoiler]

When I smell the phrase "class action lawsuit" I smell the foul odor of slimy ambulance-chasing lawyers running around looking for a big corporation with deep pockets they can sue, not because the large corporation, which is actually owned my hundreds or thousands of ordinary Americans in the form of stocks held by their own investment/retirement funds or in their pension funds, has done anything intentionally negligent or wrong but because the slimy lawyer can sue and possible win and pocket a large sum of someone else's money. I also smell the foul odor of lots of greedy individuals pretending to be wronged or exaggerating a minor problem, looking to sue someone in order to "get something for nothing. " The phrase "class action lawsuit" smells very bad to me. I am embarrassed when I see the phrase thrown around lightly because I know that nobody wins in such a case. Personally, I don't see any reason why Dodge should be sued at this point. I know that if such a lawsuit should actually be filed and actually go to court, which is extremely unlikely, everyone involved would lose. Those who filed suit and avoided possible corrective repairs on their trucks would lose, and everyone else who ever buys a Dodge would lose by paying higher prices for future repairs and for new cars and trucks. The only people who benefit from such lawsuits are the slimy ambulance chasing attorneys who win the suit and take half of the proceeds before they split the remainder of any judgement collected with the dozens, hundreds, thousands, or even millions of participants.



A more reasonable approach, it would seem to me, would be to take the truck back to the selling dealer whenever a problem occurs and in a reasonable tone, intelligently discuss the symptom with the service writer and technician with the understanding that no one, not Cummins, not Dodge, not the manufacturer's regional staff, not the selling Dodge dealer, and not the service department wants these vehicles to be problematic. I'd remind myself that everyone is trying to do their best to resolve the problems because nobody takes pleasure in having a new vehicle that is experiencing problems. I'd also remind myself that I possibly share at least a little in the responsibility for my problem because I bought a first year product of amazing complexity without stopping to realize that it might not be perfect.



Harvey

Well it seems to me that you my friend are very misinformed about these trucks. Most have taken their trucks back to the dealer many times for repair only to have the same or more problems reoccured. you are right no one wins in a lawsuit but the laywers,but sometimes that is what it takes to open chryslers eyes to how dissatified the owners are and they are not willing to be guinea pigs for them. mine has been back 5 times for the same problem and it still does it yet they have no clue as to what causes it except to tell me I am driving with both feet and that is the problem, problem with that theory is it does it driving down the fwy with the cruse control on or with my left foot on the floor board going down the road at 30mph or waiting for my kid to come out of school parked holding the brake as if waiting for a red light. mine has met the lemmon law and I just might go that route but I was waiting to see if they could fix it as it is the best one I have had for a stock truck power and towing wise. but getting 9. 1 mpg around town is eating me alive.



Jason,mine is not a grocery getter by no means but if thats what I had bought it for that would be my perogative(sp). no one says you must always have a trailer behind it or the bed loaded all the time,that is like saying because you have a mini van it must be full of kids all the time!

 

[LILHauler]

MarcS,



I know exactly what you are talking about as I work in corporate America and know people working those exact software issues for customers. As engineers, we want the fixes to be right before the product gets to the field, but many times it doesn't happen that way as marketing/management push to get it out the door and get revenue coming in. A lot of truth in waiting for the first gen vehicles to get the bugs worked out before buying. I bought a 1981 320 BMW when it first came out and it happened with it, this 6. 7 appears to have similar issues.

First off, I hope things are getting better for you and your wife, Steve. I do feel for you shelling out 50gee for a truck that you would think stops for nothing.

I also do understand what MarcS is talking about with first year run bugs. That's my delema, I have been give a CDN price that rivals the US prices for a dually 3500. The best price in years for us in Canada. I was thinking of trading my mint 79 LIL Red Express since this dealer is a collector. After reading the current posts on what is happening to the new 6. 7 or any Diesel for that matter, this leaves me to wonder what I am doing trading away a mint LIL Red that has never let me down on those summer cruises. I have been after a Cummins for years and now I can see why the good used trucks are sold when I follow them up, they work better than new. I can see it is a problem with mixed or wrong fuel and we live in a Rural area where mixed or wrong posted fuel can happen.

Does this mean that my best option is to go used(used is higher $ in CDN than US) and suffer if the lift or injector pump goes south as we drive it away. Hmmm what to do, what to do? My wife has always wanted a Cummins Diesel like myself. To even come to the decision of selling my toy after 27 years for a 6500 lb truck that is sensitive to fuel, I need a crystal ball to look into the future to see what I'm getting into.



I hope the Engineers and Sales Department are reading this because I want to part my $ on a new truck but I as many others are now in never never land. I may be stuck driving my "Chip Off The Old Rock truck(GM)" with it's rusting wheel wells and cab corners only because it gets me to work. Hmm live with "The Rocks" air holes, maybe for another year???

 

[TKeeler]

A more reasonable approach, it would seem to me, would be to take the truck back to the selling dealer whenever a problem occurs and in a reasonable tone, intelligently discuss the symptom with the service writer and technician with the understanding that no one, not Cummins, not Dodge, not the manufacturer's regional staff, not the selling Dodge dealer, and not the service department wants these vehicles to be problematic. I'd remind myself that everyone is trying to do their best to resolve the problems because nobody takes pleasure in having a new vehicle that is experiencing problems. I'd also remind myself that I possibly share at least a little in the responsibility for my problem because I bought a first year product of amazing complexity without stopping to realize that it might not be perfect.



Harvey

You must not be reading these messages very well. Read closer... we are saying that we are taking our trucks back for service but it isn't getting fixed or it has more problems than it did before.

 

[JasonCzerak]

. .



Jason,mine is not a grocery getter by no means but if thats what I had bought it for that would be my perogative(sp). no one says you must always have a trailer behind it or the bed loaded all the time,that is like saying because you have a mini van it must be full of kids all the time!

Dude, Mine's a grocery getter to tho I do drive 20 miles one way to work so things warm up. and once a week I do run things WOT where I can. If I don't, truck runs like crap after awhile. They need to be worked, no arguing that. How I work them? I like to see 1600-1800EGT's. . that does mine in for a while.



I can care less how you use the truck. I'm just merely stating why (as many others are) they fail, and thats cuz most use them like a grocery getter.