Ok, it is time to do some work on the front end of the 2001. What would you consider the ultimate fix for front end on the 2nd gen trucks? I plan on keeping this truck for a long time, heck I have a 93 ford 1t with 320,000 on the clock, so I think the Dodge should last at least 1/2 million!
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2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission Ultimate front end fix?
- Thread starter RGardner
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Don't really think there are any, you can make things a lot better, with Steering stabilizers, improved trackbars etc. but in the long run, it is still a underdesigned front end that is going to eat parts
Best thing I can say is buy good quality parts, lots of lubrication, and set a regular maintenance/replacement schedule.
Pete
Best thing I can say is buy good quality parts, lots of lubrication, and set a regular maintenance/replacement schedule.
Pete
Leaf springs and a front axle assembly with lock-out hubs. This is the setup that the first gen trucks had. They didn't have these problems.
3rd gen steering in a 2nd gen truck This thread might be helpful to you. I looked at it. It is pricey but it looks like it fixes it good. -Jason
As far as the "ultimate" fix, I'm with ScotMartin on this one. It would be a worthwhile project (leafspring conversion) to try if a guy had a scrap chassis to work and experiment on. It would be much easier as far options and parts availability if our Dodges still had a passenger-side drop on the t-case and front axle, too. There are still lots of 1st gen Dodge and '74 through (roughly) '87 Chevy t-cases and axles to be had. The Cummins downpipe is the problem there, I think, but the 1st gens prove that is not insurmountable.
As for the coilspring Ford Dana 60 in our 2nd gens, there is a detailed tech article on that very thing on "PavementSucks.com".
It wasn't nearly as easy as one might think to do, in fact it was very involved, and you give up having a front swaybar if I understood it all.
There are problems with spring bucket to kingpin clearances, track width, and wheel bolt patterns the guy found. He worked them out and likes his "real" dana 60, but there are no shortcuts.
He, too, says if he had it to do again, he would try the leafspring route.
There will be many guys happy with the stock setup that strongly disagree, but you can't change the facts about our Dana 60's (I call them degenerate Dana 60's since they evolved backwards).
>Balljoints can't even compare to kingpins for strength and durability.
>Inside, where it really matters, we have scrawny Dana 44-size axle shafts due to the CAD. Just as we have Dana 70-sized shafts in our rear dana 80's, though there appears to be no good reason for that.
>The CAD itself is a very weak link both in reliablity compared to manual lockouts and in strength due to the undersized two-piece passenger side inner shaft with a sliding coupler sleeve.
>We all know what an expensive pita the unitized hubs/bearings are, too.
>Even the axle housing is weaker due to the CAD.
>It also promotes slightly worse fuel mileage and more wear since the driver's side shaft is always turning.
There is simply nothing about our Dana 60's that even compares to the "real" dana 60's of yesteryear. Only the centersection remains the same. They have little value or desirability for any custom builders for these reasons. And none of this even touches on the more complex and wear-prone steering system.
The only supposed advantage of the Dodge coilspring setup is to improve ride, which is not enough of a reason, or even true imo, to justify the complexity and expense and unreliability of the setup Dodge designed to replace tried-and-true leaf springs.
There isn't even a significant increase in suspension articulation with the factory setup, either, as one would expect from a well-designed coil setup. If the Dodge truly wanted to improve ride, they should concentrate on the rear springs. Put in much softer and more flexible springs augmented with a very reliable and simple and relatively inexpensive and fully adjustable air suspension (like Ride Rite, Firestone, Air Lift, etc) for handling heavy loads. Those airbags are the same thing almost every modern semi-tractor uses in case you doubt the strength or reliablity or adjustability. Eliminate the spacer blocks, too (Dodge). You would notice and appreciate those simple changes much more than anything they have done to the frontend since they abandoned leafsprings there.
Ask any truck driver; It isn't the front springs that can beat a driver to tears nearly as much as the kick from overly-stiff rear springs.
For those who wish to lift their trucks, there is simply no comparison in difficulty and expense between our setup and leaf springs, either.
Interestingly, I heard a news blurb on the radio about Dana/Spicer going through bankruptcy and getting a new, and I think foreign, investor yesterday. Wall Street is not my world, so I understand little about it, but it's a shame to see such long-lived and legendary corporations and their American workers, the middle class which is also their biggest market, continue to suffer and shrink, and I have to wonder when Big Business and Big Government is going to wake up and smell the coffee? Our economy works best when we build what we buy and vice versa.
As for the coilspring Ford Dana 60 in our 2nd gens, there is a detailed tech article on that very thing on "PavementSucks.com".
It wasn't nearly as easy as one might think to do, in fact it was very involved, and you give up having a front swaybar if I understood it all.
There are problems with spring bucket to kingpin clearances, track width, and wheel bolt patterns the guy found. He worked them out and likes his "real" dana 60, but there are no shortcuts.
He, too, says if he had it to do again, he would try the leafspring route.
There will be many guys happy with the stock setup that strongly disagree, but you can't change the facts about our Dana 60's (I call them degenerate Dana 60's since they evolved backwards).
>Balljoints can't even compare to kingpins for strength and durability.
>Inside, where it really matters, we have scrawny Dana 44-size axle shafts due to the CAD. Just as we have Dana 70-sized shafts in our rear dana 80's, though there appears to be no good reason for that.
>The CAD itself is a very weak link both in reliablity compared to manual lockouts and in strength due to the undersized two-piece passenger side inner shaft with a sliding coupler sleeve.
>We all know what an expensive pita the unitized hubs/bearings are, too.
>Even the axle housing is weaker due to the CAD.
>It also promotes slightly worse fuel mileage and more wear since the driver's side shaft is always turning.
There is simply nothing about our Dana 60's that even compares to the "real" dana 60's of yesteryear. Only the centersection remains the same. They have little value or desirability for any custom builders for these reasons. And none of this even touches on the more complex and wear-prone steering system.
The only supposed advantage of the Dodge coilspring setup is to improve ride, which is not enough of a reason, or even true imo, to justify the complexity and expense and unreliability of the setup Dodge designed to replace tried-and-true leaf springs.
There isn't even a significant increase in suspension articulation with the factory setup, either, as one would expect from a well-designed coil setup. If the Dodge truly wanted to improve ride, they should concentrate on the rear springs. Put in much softer and more flexible springs augmented with a very reliable and simple and relatively inexpensive and fully adjustable air suspension (like Ride Rite, Firestone, Air Lift, etc) for handling heavy loads. Those airbags are the same thing almost every modern semi-tractor uses in case you doubt the strength or reliablity or adjustability. Eliminate the spacer blocks, too (Dodge). You would notice and appreciate those simple changes much more than anything they have done to the frontend since they abandoned leafsprings there.
Ask any truck driver; It isn't the front springs that can beat a driver to tears nearly as much as the kick from overly-stiff rear springs.
For those who wish to lift their trucks, there is simply no comparison in difficulty and expense between our setup and leaf springs, either.
Interestingly, I heard a news blurb on the radio about Dana/Spicer going through bankruptcy and getting a new, and I think foreign, investor yesterday. Wall Street is not my world, so I understand little about it, but it's a shame to see such long-lived and legendary corporations and their American workers, the middle class which is also their biggest market, continue to suffer and shrink, and I have to wonder when Big Business and Big Government is going to wake up and smell the coffee? Our economy works best when we build what we buy and vice versa.
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Thanks for the vote of confidence SRath.
Scot
Scot
Well, he did say "ultimate", so I let my fantasy play out... Who knows? Maybe one day I'll luck into a boneyard chassis, or even a complete parts truck and I can do both the Cummins/Chevy conversion on my K-30 that I wish for and play with leafspringing a 2nd gen...
As a practical matter for now, and what I'm gathering the parts to do once winter is done, is what JOdell suggested if it is what CumminsPower98 did to his.
Start here with this link to his webpages:
My Ram
and reference his replacing the steering setup on his '96 front axle with the improved design available on the '98. Follow through to his clever way of greasing the unitized hub bearings, while checking out all his other mods along the way.
I like his webpage and upgrades very much. (Thanks again, Mark!!) I also just came up with a set of adjustable, tubular, poly-bushed, upper and lower control arms for my truck. Very nice to have in the event I wish to lift my truck, not to mention much stronger than the factory sheetmetal stampings.
Follow that with what Pete said about religious maintenence, and it should help. Once you do all the upgrades, it will likely be a pretty solid system.
If money is not an object, Dynatrac's hub/lockout/axle shaft upgrade kit will get you a killer front axle except you will always be stuck with ball joints instead of kingpins. But good balljoints will give decent service time and will likely be the only serious replacement maintenence the frontend then requires.
There are a couple of cheaper front hub/bearing/outer shaft/lockout conversions on the market; and one also offers a 1-piece replacement inner shaft for the passenger side (at a higher price) like Dynatrac does (at a much higher price, of course). Their basic kits are half the price of the Dynatrac kit. But if you compare the beef of what Dynatrac supplies vs. their's you'll see why (sort of anyway). Dynatrac is not known for low prices to begin with, but they do build tough stuff, and in this case it is much beefier... but c'mon, twice as much?!! You'd have to really need it (big power mods) to be worth paying that much, I think.
All in all, figure about $400 for the steering tierods and balljoint replacement parts. $300 to $400 to upgrade the trackbar. $250 for the steering brace. $300 to $400 for adjustable control arms. Don't forget your swaybar linkage, about, what, $75? Add good shocks and stabilizer for another $75 to $125 apiece. The bushing kit if your steering column is sloppy: $50. New front tires since your old ones are undoubtedly shot from the stock suspension: $300 to $400.
You will have fixed the major problems with the steering, now. $1500 won't do it even figured on the low side and without 2 new front tires. $2000 is probably closer to the mark. You have not upgraded your coil springs. You have not upgraded your axle yet, either. For that, you will spend another $1500 to $2500 for the lockout hub/bearing/outer shaft upgrade kit and separately sold inner axle shafts, depending on who's you buy.
Now this pricing is based both on what I have spent on some of those components so far, and what I have read, been quoted, or think I remember for the rest. But for only $3000 to $4500, you can have an "ultimate" 2nd gen coil spring front suspension that is way better than stock. But "ultimate" is pretty subjective. So is "only"...
If I told you what a comparable rebuild and custom softride suspension cost (with springs!) for a Dana 60 leafspring frontend, you would either get angry or sick...
As a practical matter for now, and what I'm gathering the parts to do once winter is done, is what JOdell suggested if it is what CumminsPower98 did to his.
Start here with this link to his webpages:
My Ram
and reference his replacing the steering setup on his '96 front axle with the improved design available on the '98. Follow through to his clever way of greasing the unitized hub bearings, while checking out all his other mods along the way.
I like his webpage and upgrades very much. (Thanks again, Mark!!) I also just came up with a set of adjustable, tubular, poly-bushed, upper and lower control arms for my truck. Very nice to have in the event I wish to lift my truck, not to mention much stronger than the factory sheetmetal stampings.
Follow that with what Pete said about religious maintenence, and it should help. Once you do all the upgrades, it will likely be a pretty solid system.
If money is not an object, Dynatrac's hub/lockout/axle shaft upgrade kit will get you a killer front axle except you will always be stuck with ball joints instead of kingpins. But good balljoints will give decent service time and will likely be the only serious replacement maintenence the frontend then requires.
There are a couple of cheaper front hub/bearing/outer shaft/lockout conversions on the market; and one also offers a 1-piece replacement inner shaft for the passenger side (at a higher price) like Dynatrac does (at a much higher price, of course). Their basic kits are half the price of the Dynatrac kit. But if you compare the beef of what Dynatrac supplies vs. their's you'll see why (sort of anyway). Dynatrac is not known for low prices to begin with, but they do build tough stuff, and in this case it is much beefier... but c'mon, twice as much?!! You'd have to really need it (big power mods) to be worth paying that much, I think.
All in all, figure about $400 for the steering tierods and balljoint replacement parts. $300 to $400 to upgrade the trackbar. $250 for the steering brace. $300 to $400 for adjustable control arms. Don't forget your swaybar linkage, about, what, $75? Add good shocks and stabilizer for another $75 to $125 apiece. The bushing kit if your steering column is sloppy: $50. New front tires since your old ones are undoubtedly shot from the stock suspension: $300 to $400.
You will have fixed the major problems with the steering, now. $1500 won't do it even figured on the low side and without 2 new front tires. $2000 is probably closer to the mark. You have not upgraded your coil springs. You have not upgraded your axle yet, either. For that, you will spend another $1500 to $2500 for the lockout hub/bearing/outer shaft upgrade kit and separately sold inner axle shafts, depending on who's you buy.
Now this pricing is based both on what I have spent on some of those components so far, and what I have read, been quoted, or think I remember for the rest. But for only $3000 to $4500, you can have an "ultimate" 2nd gen coil spring front suspension that is way better than stock. But "ultimate" is pretty subjective. So is "only"...
If I told you what a comparable rebuild and custom softride suspension cost (with springs!) for a Dana 60 leafspring frontend, you would either get angry or sick...
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Last year I installed the SS 2nd to 3rd gen TB bracket, SS Adj Track Bar, and and a PSC 3 turn box. Very happy with the upgrades. Now that I fixed the wobble when braking with new drilled/slotted rotors the truck steers with one finger and tracks straight. The truck is fun to drive now. The 3rd gen steering box upgrade I've heard about sure is pricey at $1200. I'm happy with the PSC 3 turn box for now and it was much cheaper.
Dave
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Well my take would be:
Axle:
02 non CAD housing (trussed top and bottom), 35 spline inners, Detroit TrueTrac diff, Mag Hytech cover, and DynaTrac's "Stub Hub" kit modified to fit the 02 Knuckle, and Dynatracs new lockout Hub and 35 spline outer stub axles. This way the Hub is 2. 388" shorter, and wont stick out beyond the wheel.
I will never run larger than a 35" tire on my truck with my H2 rims, so the Ball joints are acceptable, compared to the hassles involved with going to the Kingpin knuckles.
Suspension:
The Carli kit with the air bumps
No leaf spring can compare to a proerly shocked and set up coil link suspension for ride, travel, and traction IMHO
Steering:
DSS, 3rd Gen box adjustable trac bar.
Just tweeking what is already there
It wouldn't be cheap, but it would be attainable, piece by piece, and would be a nice upgrade, especially for an early 2nd gen, with the 2002s better calipers and non CAD housing.
To compiment this would be a 2002 rear D80 W/ Discs and Scheids 37 spline upgrade and Detroit Locker and Mag Hytech cover
Axle:
02 non CAD housing (trussed top and bottom), 35 spline inners, Detroit TrueTrac diff, Mag Hytech cover, and DynaTrac's "Stub Hub" kit modified to fit the 02 Knuckle, and Dynatracs new lockout Hub and 35 spline outer stub axles. This way the Hub is 2. 388" shorter, and wont stick out beyond the wheel.
I will never run larger than a 35" tire on my truck with my H2 rims, so the Ball joints are acceptable, compared to the hassles involved with going to the Kingpin knuckles.
Suspension:
The Carli kit with the air bumps
No leaf spring can compare to a proerly shocked and set up coil link suspension for ride, travel, and traction IMHO
Steering:
DSS, 3rd Gen box adjustable trac bar.
Just tweeking what is already there
It wouldn't be cheap, but it would be attainable, piece by piece, and would be a nice upgrade, especially for an early 2nd gen, with the 2002s better calipers and non CAD housing.
To compiment this would be a 2002 rear D80 W/ Discs and Scheids 37 spline upgrade and Detroit Locker and Mag Hytech cover
murfmans plan would make for nice front end for sure. Dynatrac won't sell the "stub hub" for full size trucks though. I'ts intended for lighter vehicles with Dana 60s under them. Bearings are too close together for our trucks weight. At least that's what they said when i tried to order it for my truck. But you can do murfmans plan with the long hub and it'd be pretty tough..... and it's attainable.
j
j
hello im new to the form but not to the dodge's my wife's truck just turned the clock with 450k and just did the front over hall and i use a dt pro fab track bar,the steering box bearing kit and put thorenson ball heim steering linkage also put moog ball joints and new box in just for kicks also did axle ujoint and the hubs . that stuff took care of the steering probs and the truck is tight like new and i did it all for less than $1500
but as far as the free float hub kit goes i think its a good idea but its 2 grand and you can put 4-5 sets of stock hubs on for the price of one kit. but up side to the free float kit is you might get 2-5% inc in fuel milage and with fuel at 3. 60 for #2 thats a lot of $$$ per year!
anyway just my . 2
but as far as the free float hub kit goes i think its a good idea but its 2 grand and you can put 4-5 sets of stock hubs on for the price of one kit. but up side to the free float kit is you might get 2-5% inc in fuel milage and with fuel at 3. 60 for #2 thats a lot of $$$ per year!
anyway just my . 2
the DSS steering box support is a known good. i've done the mod to two trucks now and felt like i got my money's worth both times.
actually the second steering box support was from defiant but it's the same principle/result.
i really do not recall anyone saying negative things about the DSS or like mod.
i've also done the adjustable track bar from DSS on the same two trucks... . again happy.
jeff
actually the second steering box support was from defiant but it's the same principle/result.
i really do not recall anyone saying negative things about the DSS or like mod.
i've also done the adjustable track bar from DSS on the same two trucks... . again happy.
jeff
When you say DSS I suppose you mean SS products. DSS is the Dodge Steering Stabilizer usually from SS (Solid Steel). I'm assuming you already know this but allow me to explain and clarify for the benefit of others that don't.
The DSS stabilizes the steering box output shaft useing a new pitman arm nut with a bearing supporting the steering shaft and a heavy bar going between the frame rails to support the bearing assembly. Now one of the Solid Steel products is the 3rd gen track bar conversion bracket which allows a 3rd gen bar to be used on a 2nd gen truck. I like this type bracket because it is a bolt on not a weld on like Thuren's... . I think Thurens is great but I did not want to get someone to weld it for me. SS makes track bars (adjustable and non-adjustable). I have the DSS and the 3rd gen TB bracket and the SS adjustable 3rd gen track bar. I believe all the SS products can be found at Source Automotive Steering/Suspension. I do see adjustable front control arms on their site but not sure who makes them.
All of the SS mods were great mods to help our sucky front end problems of which I have been fighting (Death wobble) for 2 years now. Those mods combined with the PSC 3 turn steering box and a good frame alignment shop (who understood the alignment specs I gave him and fixed a right front tire wear issue) have made my truck steer straight and fun to drive (with one finger).
Sorry for the rant, but I think these mods helped greatly all my steering issues. The only other thing I would consider adding is the Y to T conversion for the tie rods etc. . , but for now I am happy.
Now... . as to your question... who else has used any of these Solid Steel type mods and what do you think.
Edit: I also put on 2 Rancho steering stabilizers, 4 Bilstein shocks, 4 Energy Susp. poly frt control arm bushings, drilled/slotted NAPA frt rotors and pads and caliper pins, new pitman arm, a few tie rod ends, Michlein tires and rt. frt. offset sleeve in steering knuckle. Then the clutch went bad and now have SBC MU 13. 125 Con O and new master/slave cylinder, new rear crank seal, new front NV4500 bearing retainer/seal. I could go on but... you're bored by now anyhow... but I feel better now... . breath in and breath out... aaahhh... . oh well.
Good luck,
Dave
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Issue 128 – Digital Version
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FREE!
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Renew
Subscribe
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Back Issues
Subscription Status
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