Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) considering 06 trade down to 96, advice

[birddog]

I was considering selling my 06, 6 speed and buying a 96-98 12 valve quad cab long box. Sounds crazy but I have this urge to live life a lot simpler. I had a 97 at one time and absolutley loved it. I was working on it just about every other day and rusted away after 6 years, but I liked it. My main question for the family folks is will my kids seats work in the back seat of the older trucks and I am I total fool and just being impatient with the economy and my job. 06 is lien free. I think I know the answers sometimes just need some impartial thoughts. I actually am not impressed with the vehicle quality of the 06, it's a pulling machine but injectors,flywheels, clutches, ac compressor, vent doors, heater boxes; just to name a few all in 32k miles.

 

[AABEN]

I think now is a bad time to do this! you will take a large lost. You know what you have but you will not know what you will be getting. Set tight.

 

[DonTX]

Well, I for one would do just what you propose, I understand your reasons. Sure you will take a beating on the 06, and you are getting into something you know little about in the 12v, but with a little careful looking and shopping, you can get something quite reliable. I bought my 97 with 140k on it some years ago. I have put on about 100k now and had nothing but pleasant driving with it, except for tires and batteries. My vote is to go for it!

 

[DValentine]

The kid seat works fine in my '98. He is 15 months so is facing forward. It sits in the center. I have only one right now, so no idea how two seats will work.

Dave

 

[Skydiver]

Not a bad Idea at all. Just find a sucker,,,I mean a buyer for the 06. LOL

Bad- Might lose money on the 06. - No rear doors on my 96 - Need to spend an hour or 3 on the KDP - Can't adjust the timing on the 12 valve on the fly.



Good - I have had no problems with my 96. A/C still works fine. Radio is a little stubborn.

If you get an older truck plan on replacing the normal wear and tear items, Windsheild, paint, upholstery, brake hardware & new radiator (piece of mind). Check the dreaded heater core first. All day job that has not bit me yet,,,knock on wood.

I would not buy a truck that has had fuel mods unless I knew how the previous owner treated the truck.

One last thing,,,12 valves RULE

 

[Regcabguy]

Simpler is better,but the wandering steering and poor brakes would keep me from ever returning to a 2nd. gen. I've had great luck with my '07 so far as compared to constant issues with my 2nd gen.

 

[DonTX]

Was your second gen a 4x4? My second gen (two wheel drive) at 210k has handled like a dream, empty or loaded. It seems the people with handling problems have the 4 wheel drive. My brakes are wonderful, still the original braking surfaces even. I couldn't put up with poor handling or brakes either.

Simpler is better,but the wandering steering and poor brakes would keep me from ever returning to a 2nd. gen. I've had great luck with my '07 so far as compared to constant issues with my 2nd gen.

 

[jgillott]

Every once in a while, you may run across someone who has a 12-valve that is looking to trade for a 1st gen. If you can happen in to that situation, you may help to control your overall loss on the '06.

 

[HBarlow]

How do you gain anything by selling a low-mileage '06, probably at a significant loss, and buying an older truck?

Your newer truck may require some maintenance or parts replacement but so will an older one. You know who has been driving and maintaining the one you own now, what about who's been driving and maintaining an older truck?

 

[Regcabguy]

Was your second gen a 4x4? My second gen (two wheel drive) at 210k has handled like a dream, empty or loaded. It seems the people with handling problems have the 4 wheel drive. My brakes are wonderful, still the original braking surfaces even. I couldn't put up with poor handling or brakes either.

Yes,it was a 4x4. Mine had the rear drums,with Chevy wheel cylinders and proportioning valve delete. Otherwards the works. Extremely scary panic stopping. I did improve it somewhat with EGR's rear discs but still nothing like my '07. I did carry my current 2000# popup on that vehicle also. The only thing I miss about that truck was the seats(mine suck) and the 2nds had great styling and easier entry(I'm tall). I had to have a Pacbrake installed for more piece of mine. A 2001. 5 w/rear discs and a 12 valve w/Thuren steering would be a great setup. Dream on.

 

[DonTX]

Mine does alright with the drums on the rear, but I would upgrade to rear discs in a minute if somebody offered me a set. I have had both, and far prefer the rear discs.

 

[DonTX]

Different strokes for different folks Harvey. My son is a Dodge dealership mechanic, the late model stuff keeps him busy, the old 12v's hardly ever show up with a problem. When there IS a problem, it is far cheaper and easier to fix. Injectors for yours are about a grand a piece and takes two hours labor to put one in, which is a common repair. . I know the 12v people are laughing about that, I can change one of mine real easy - and far cheaper. He was just telling me a while ago about a new one he has put two engines in so far, it has not made it to 20k miles yet!

THAT is what you gain when going backwards to an oldie.

How do you gain anything by selling a low-mileage '06, probably at a significant loss, and buying an older truck?



Your newer truck may require some maintenance or parts replacement but so will an older one. You know who has been driving and maintaining the one you own now, what about who's been driving and maintaining an older truck?

 

[LVJUNIOR]

If you have one kid it will work out fine putting a car in the middle. If you have two car seats it won't work unless you or your spouse is under 5'-4" and scoot the front seat up a bunch

 

[HBarlow]

Different strokes for different folks Harvey. My son is a Dodge dealership mechanic, the late model stuff keeps him busy, the old 12v's hardly ever show up with a problem. When there IS a problem, it is far cheaper and easier to fix. Injectors for yours are about a grand a piece and takes two hours labor to put one in, which is a common repair. . I know the 12v people are laughing about that, I can change one of mine real easy - and far cheaper. He was just telling me a while ago about a new one he has put two engines in so far, it has not made it to 20k miles yet!
THAT is what you gain when going backwards to an oldie.

Each to his own. What others choose to do is not my concern but looking strictly at the dollars the original poster's idea would be a loser. He would lose thousands of dollars selling his current truck. A 12 valve replacement would have to be perfectly trouble free for 20 years to compensate him for the loss on his '06.

How did HPCR injectors become so expensive? You must be citing dealer parts department retail list prices which no one pays.

A couple of years ago when I had a mysterious intemittent rough idle on my high mileage '06 a Cummins dealer in Amarillo told me I needed a set of injectors. The price of a "six pack" of Cummins rebuilt HPCR injectors at the time was about $1975 IIRC. I have a former Dodge dealership mechanic friend who could/would install them for a very modest fee. I had a cylinder performance test done which proved the injectors were all fine (at a little over 200k miles). The problem was corrected by an inexpensive FCA for a little over $100.

There is no argument that the old 12 valve trucks are reliable and capable of pulling when modified but they have a very narrow power band that, in my opinion, made them a lot less desirable to drive. I test drove a new Dodge-Cummins 47RE in '94 at a local dealer's lot and went and bought a 460 ci Ford gasser instead. I didn't want to drive one then and sure wouldn't go back to driving one now after owning a 24 valve and two HPCRs. They were crude by the standards of today's trucks.

I read reports of problems with the HPCR trucks here on the TDR site all the time but I've never experienced any of the problems that others report. The three I've owned have been extremely reliable and durable.

The untold "rest of the story" with HPCR trucks is often the magic black boxes that are so easy to buy, install, and allow the engine to produce huge hp and tq. My grandson bought a new '05 several years ago. I gently advised him against a magic black box but being young he bought one anyway and bragged about the amazing performance. He could talk about nothing else for awhile. Like many, he claimed he only ran it on modest power settings and never abused it. He traded the truck off a year or so later and never mentions it anymore. I suspect he trashed the engine and doesn't want to admit it.

.

 

[Grizzly]

I had a 2nd gen 95 CTD, with a 5 speed and the 410 gear, which I purchased new. I kept it for 10 years and put high mileage with a trip to Alaska and all over the USA. It was a great truck and it was never in the shop, except for a wheel alignment. Still had all it's original parts when I sold it.



I now have an 05, which I also purchased new. This is a much improved truck when compared to the 95. Not only does the engine have about twice the HP and torque the truck is roomier with far more better features, such as the new tow mirrors over the old tripod jobs. Mileage has been the same on both gens. There's just a world of differences between the two generations.



I believe you'd be taking a giant step backwards, ekurth, by letting go of your 06 to purchase a 2nd gen of unknown maintenance history and outdated technology.



I don't know why you're having so many issues with the 06. Must have been assembled in St Louis or mistreated.

 

[AClayton]

It is easy to get fed up w/ our trucks when they do let us down... . my 01' cost me nearly $7000 over the month of June. I had to borrow my nephews truck... . an 03' Tundra... . to pul my trailer to continue working while mine was in the shop. The new transmission,which was expected to fail,was replaced before it was grenaded from adding extra power... ... which is MY expected expense. The inj. pump went a few weeks ago and had to be replaced. Both parts are standard replacement items on 2nd Gens with the mileage I have on mine..... it just happened to me over a 1 month period. Lot of money to be putting out in only a few weeks time.



The Tundra is a nice truck and pulled my trailer well... . until you approached any hills or needed to pass. I then noticed I wasn't getting my fuel mileage my 01' gets when I noticed the gas gauge in the Tundra was on empty in only 200 milesMy trailer is very heavy and has a lot of tonque weight for a 12 footer. The Cummins is a cake walk but a 1/2 ton struggles.



The cost of trading an 06' down to a 12V would be a huge mistake for your pocketbook. Just fix your truck and suck it up and continue driving it. The old 12V's are indeed reliable and have minimal maintenance costs as far as engine maintenance... . BUT,drivetrain and interior maintenance will certainly add up quickly on an unknown used truck. These trucks aren't known for the best front-ends either... . Don and George,I'm talking about the 4X4's!!

The added cost to boost performance in the 12V to compare to that of the 06' will need to be considered also. Many things to consider when downgrading will surface when you are used to a newer truck and 'settle' for an older one... . especially when you are supposedly doing it to SAVE money. Your call,but I would not do it.



I hated my truck last month and then when I got it back and hitched up to the trailer... . I couldn't believe the difference vs. the Tundra. I'll keep mine and suck it up and HOPE it remains reliable from this point forward.



Alan

 

[DonTX]

My guidance is just rattling on, I never have even ridden in a later model truck, let alone have any first hand knowledge of them, as Grizzly does. I do secretly admire the torque curve in the 24v models, the honest four door models, and the wife complains about the noise these older ones makes. Still, I am satisfied with mine, and since I don't use it to make a living or such, it will do me for the rest of my driving days.

Each to his own. What others choose to do is not my concern but looking strictly at the dollars the original poster's idea would be a loser. He would lose thousands of dollars selling his current truck. A 12 valve replacement would have to be perfectly trouble free for 20 years to compensate him for the loss on his '06.



How did HPCR injectors become so expensive? You must be citing dealer parts department retail list prices which no one pays.



A couple of years ago when I had a mysterious intemittent rough idle on my high mileage '06 a Cummins dealer in Amarillo told me I needed a set of injectors. The price of a "six pack" of Cummins rebuilt HPCR injectors at the time was about $1975 IIRC. I have a former Dodge dealership mechanic friend who could/would install them for a very modest fee. I had a cylinder performance test done which proved the injectors were all fine (at a little over 200k miles). The problem was corrected by an inexpensive FCA for a little over $100.



There is no argument that the old 12 valve trucks are reliable and capable of pulling when modified but they have a very narrow power band that, in my opinion, made them a lot less desirable to drive. I test drove a new Dodge-Cummins 47RE in '94 at a local dealer's lot and went and bought a 460 ci Ford gasser instead. I didn't want to drive one then and sure wouldn't go back to driving one now after owning a 24 valve and two HPCRs. They were crude by the standards of today's trucks.



I read reports of problems with the HPCR trucks here on the TDR site all the time but I've never experienced any of the problems that others report. The three I've owned have been extremely reliable and durable.



The untold "rest of the story" with HPCR trucks is often the magic black boxes that are so easy to buy, install, and allow the engine to produce huge hp and tq. My grandson bought a new '05 several years ago. I gently advised him against a magic black box but being young he bought one anyway and bragged about the amazing performance. He could talk about nothing else for awhile. Like many, he claimed he only ran it on modest power settings and never abused it. He traded the truck off a year or so later and never mentions it anymore. I suspect he trashed the engine and doesn't want to admit it.



.

 

[CCiatteo]

My first diesel is the truck I currently own and I love it. I don't know how much improvement the newer trucks offer, but I can tell you what to expect from 10-15 year old truck. My truck was meticulously maintained by the previous owner and he still offers to buy it back from me when I see him. He sold my truck to get into a 3500 DRW 2005. Anyway, I bought my 97 with 155,000 on the clock and I have 211,000 now, so thats 55,000 in 3+years.



In that time I have done tires, shocks, fuel solenoid, starter, alternator, batteries, belt, tensioner, front hubs, rotors, pads, calipers, new hard lines, rear driveshaft (u-joints, pinion yoke, seal) all of which falls under routine mainentance for a 10-15 year old truck with 215,000 miles. I added gauges, BHAF, #11 plate, AFC spring kit, brake controller.



Next up I have to do front inner axles seals and will probably do the ball joints, front u-joints while I have it all apart, might even do the steering coversion (Y to T) and a new track bar... ... My truck could use new paint on the hood and the roof (the whole truck should be re-shot, truthfully). I'd like to upgrade the headlights, do an 3-piece exhaust manifold, add a pac brake, and know that there is a clutch job lurking somewhere in my future (still on the original clutch).



I'd imagine that most trucks of this vintage could be in a similar place. And this is not from abuse or neglect, just the maintenance needed to have confidence in the vehicle to go anywhere without concern.



The back seat would be marginal for 1 kid and probably not doable for two kids, especially without the 3rd door (pre 98). Finding a 98 12v is next to impossible, so don't hold your breathe on that one. I love my truck and I wouldn't trade the simplicity of it for the newer truck, but you have to know what you are getting into. I feel like I am slowly restoring the truck and I am OK with that, but it might not be for everyone.



Good Luck

Chris

 

[Joe G.]

I agree with Don. My '95 4X4 has never had any front end problems like I read about on the forums. I put on bigger rear brake cylinders. Stops good in a panic so I'm happy with that. Plenty of power for what I want to do because of the mods I've made. I can fix it without having to use a computer. I'll keep the noisy contraption.

 

[HBarlow]

My first diesel is the truck I currently own and I love it. I don't know how much improvement the newer trucks offer, but I can tell you what to expect from 10-15 year old truck. My truck was meticulously maintained by the previous owner and he still offers to buy it back from me when I see him. He sold my truck to get into a 3500 DRW 2005. Anyway, I bought my 97 with 155,000 on the clock and I have 211,000 now, so thats 55,000 in 3+years.

In that time I have done tires, shocks, fuel solenoid, starter, alternator, batteries, belt, tensioner, front hubs, rotors, pads, calipers, new hard lines, rear driveshaft (u-joints, pinion yoke, seal) all of which falls under routine mainentance for a 10-15 year old truck with 215,000 miles. I added gauges, BHAF, #11 plate, AFC spring kit, brake controller.

Next up I have to do front inner axles seals and will probably do the ball joints, front u-joints while I have it all apart, might even do the steering coversion (Y to T) and a new track bar... ... My truck could use new paint on the hood and the roof (the whole truck should be re-shot, truthfully). I'd like to upgrade the headlights, do an 3-piece exhaust manifold, add a pac brake, and know that there is a clutch job lurking somewhere in my future (still on the original clutch).

I'd imagine that most trucks of this vintage could be in a similar place. And this is not from abuse or neglect, just the maintenance needed to have confidence in the vehicle to go anywhere without concern.

The back seat would be marginal for 1 kid and probably not doable for two kids, especially without the 3rd door (pre 98). Finding a 98 12v is next to impossible, so don't hold your breathe on that one. I love my truck and I wouldn't trade the simplicity of it for the newer truck, but you have to know what you are getting into. I feel like I am slowly restoring the truck and I am OK with that, but it might not be for everyone.

Good Luck
Chris

This is an excellent, informative post IMO. Clearly, Chris, the owner, is completely satisfied with his truck, not complaining, just honestly and objectively reporting the maintenance his truck has required.