Towing with a Hemi

[AHarris]

I love my truck but I've developed some major back problems that are going to require surgery. I test drove two 2011 Ram Crew Cab 2500 STs--one with the Cummins and one with a Hemi. Both trucks drove great and I was impressed with the snappy response and smoothness of the Hemi. They advertise 383HP and 400 lbs of torque for this V8. Lots easier on the back with a much better ride and auto trans and the much bigger back seat is a plus for my two soon to be teenagers. I can get the Hemi for $31K or the Cummins for $41K and the stealership will give me $26K for my truck on trade.



I can't to spend 40K for a truck right now. 90% of my driving is around town and family camping trips comprise the rest pulling the RV in my sig below to campgrounds, which goes about 8,500# loaded. Once a year we take the RV on a long (1,000 miles or more) road trip.



I would appreciate some unbiased advice here from smart guys here who might have experience towing with the Hemi or know someone who tows heavy occasionally with one. I don't have any illusions that it will pull it like a Cummins but would like to know if it can do the job comfortably.

 

[MChrist]

A guy at work drives an '03 with a Hemi, and he pulls all sorts of stuff with no problems. I just got done pulling an 8500# work trailer with our '99 GMC van with a 5. 0 gasser and was quite surprised how well it pulled. Granted, our area is very flat, but I was probably giving up 100 hp and 75 lb/ft of torque to the Hemi. I think the only thing you will notice is the fuel mileage.
If you do get it, please let us all know how it works out.

 

[EricBu12]

I second that the hemi will be good for you. the light load of the trailer you have will do the job just fine and the 90% of your duty cycle being around town is better that you get the gas vehicle. The new Cummins need to be heated up and driven at least 10 miles or so on the freeway more often to keep the DPF happy.

 

[HBarlow]

The hemi engine may be rated at 400 ft. /lbs of torque but take another look at the spec sheet and notice where in the power band the hemi produces that 400 ft. /lbs. The hemi is a great performance engine in a car but it is a short stroke V8. It must spin at 3500 to 4000 rpm to produce rated torque. If the brochures display a torque curve also note the amount of torque the engine produces at around 2000 to 2500 rpm which is where it would be in overdrive on the interstate.

The torque band and max torque rating figures are telling you that everytime you begin an ascent up a slight grade with any trailer in tow and your right foot or the cruise control calls for acceleration to maintain speed the automatic will downshift two and occasionally three gears, the tach will spin to 3500-4000 rpm, the engine will roar, and the fuel gauge will drop noticeably.

Only you can decide if that operational performance is acceptable.

It certainly would not for me. I would prefer to lower air pressure in the tires and even remove a leaf from the rear springs of a Ram 2500 w/Cummins to soften the ride instead of trading for a hemi.

I owned a Chrysler 300C hemi sedan and loved the performance of the "hemi" (its not really a hemi) but would not care to own one in a pickup.

 

[Barry]

I was in the aircraft biz for 20 years. As a commercial pilot with several different ratings, I learned quickly about "Density Altitude".



Normally aspirated engines are rated at sea level on a 59 degree day. But if you are going thru a 6,000 ft. pass on a 85 degree day, the density altitude is going to be somewhere between 9 and 10 feet. At that density altitude, a normally aspirated engine will only develope around 50% of its sea level rated horse power. Where as a turbo charged, intercooled engine will maintain it's sea level rated horse power all the way thru 10,000 feet and then fall off only slightly as you go higher.



I have seen it time and time again where Maw and Paw buy a new gas motorhome and head for Colorado. Buy the time they reach their destination campground, they are ready to strangle that nice, slick talking RV salesman that sold them that rig.



My point is, yes, if you are going to just be pulling light tow loads and are going to stay at low altitudes, you will be OK.



mi dos centavos

 

[RobertHiltz]

AHarris, The Hemi will do just fine for you, just expect low fuel mileage towing. You indicate 1,000 mile or less trips from MI so you will not be running a lot of high altitude grades anyway. You will have to drive it a little differently that you do your Cummins when climbing steep long grades. Downshift at the start of the grade and put your foot in it. You may even pass some Cummins Rams in the first couple thousand feet of climb in altitude, you will however be smelling Cummins exhaust after that.

 

[AClayton]

I agree with HB and his stance regarding the power and torque band of the Cummins. A gas engine, on the other hand, might be the choice for you due to purchase price, the light load you intend to pull and the ride that you say you need. Provided you are using your trailer as described and only a 1k trip once a year or so, I certainly believe I could live with the power and economy your Hemi will render. The need to choose the right tool for the job is especially important when considering any of the new diesels on the market today... ... ... . as described in relative detail a few posts up. That has been discussed so many times in the 3rd Gen forums before it is not worth repeating, but you need to 'load' these trucks to keep the emmisions hardware happy.



My advice?



Get the new gas Hemi and pay the penalty for hp and tq and fuel economy the few short times you tow a year... ... ... ... you can purchase an awful lot of gas for $10k!!!!!The extra cost you said the diesel upgrade wouldd be.



Or simply keep the truck you have... ... ... . already a 6. 7l Cummins... ... probably low miles!!



Alan

 

[Shadrach]

I have towed my 24 TT with my brother's E350 with a 5. 4. It has adequate power but screams going up a big hill and does get OK mileage, but the CTD out pulls it without a sweat. He had to make that decision as well, gas or diesel. He has never pulled with a diesel and is happy with the gas. I have more power and get better fuel mileage but have more expensive maintenance than he does. The hemi would probably be OK for your lifestyle ( for now ) just be prepared to pay at the pumps. Your next truck after this one will probably be another Cummins. Shadrach

 

[BrianJ]

Taking the cummins out of the equation and considering a gasser, you may want to look at the Chevy offerings. I have been browsing at adding a gasser myself, and from my limited research so far, the Chevy gasser is going to provide more power and better economy than a "hemi". And if ride is a consideration on your back, the Chevy would most likely offer a better/smoother ride as well. Just something to consider...

 

[AH64ID]

If you can handle the hemi screaming all the time then it will work fine. It will be slower to accelerate, and will downshift at the drop of a pin, but it will move the weight. With the double OD 545RFE I would get a 4. 10 rear-end.

Lets look at the trans and ratios real quick. So lets assume your pulling a hill at 53 (makes math easy!). You are going to be at 4,000 rpms in 2nd gear (kick-down of 1. 67:1), and lets assume the tq converter is locked. That will be 2738 ft/lbs of tq to the rear wheels (WOT) (let's not bother with drive train loss here). If you had a diesel (with 3. 73's and an auto) you would probably be in 4th gear at 2175 rpms. The numbers here are a little off, but lets assume the tq curve is flat (as depicted by Cummins) and makes 650 ft/lbs; there would be 2424 ft'bs (WOT) available at the rear wheels, actually less than the Hemi (recall no drivetrain loss)...

So all that shows is that the Hemi can put the tq to the wheels, but it will take rpms, which means more fuel burn and more noise as the cost.

If the two truck were geared so that at a given speed (say 60) they were both at rated rpm, Cummins at 3000 and Hemi at 5600 the Hemi would actually have more tq to the ground, by almost 10%. . now that's food for thought.

 

[surfbeetle]

Have you considered looking at any suspension mods that would make your current truck ride better such as Keldermann or an air seat? Or are you really thinking that a larger backseat for you kids is what's important? On the economy scale, you have determined that the gasser is cheaper to purchase initially, but may be more to operate when towing. Would you be money ahead by making your current truck suit your needs due to your backpain? I'm just adding food for thought.

 

[MChrist]

When I was looking for a truck for work/personal use, I test drove everything out there. I ended up choosing Dodge/Cummins because I knew that platform flat out worked. No way in heck I was going to buy the 6. 4 or 6. 0 Ford. I actually liked the Chevy/Duramax, but had too much of a disconnected, soft feel to the power. I prefer the sound and feel of the Dodge, and the way it has instant torque right off idle.
I then drove the... . wait for it..... Tundra. Yes, I did. I said it. Hold your hate mail! If I had to choose a truck based on light duty needs, the "T" word would have gotten more of my attention. But since I knew I had to tow heavy, it was out of the running.
Since you don't have to tow that heavy, maybe check it out, too. If your back is that bad, you may find that it rides nicer than the American offerings.
Bottom line: drive everything, and don't let anybody shame you into buying anything in particular. You have to pay for it, you have to like it. Do research to find weak links in everybody's trucks, and see if those weak links affect you.
Apparently "T" had a problem with the strength of their tailgates. If you loaded a 750# ATV, it could buckle the gate. So they made them stronger to accomodate the buyer. Do the American companies react that quickly when people voice a complaint? No. Not usually. Whatever you choose, let us know what you think, so we can all learn.
Thanks.

 

[AHarris]

Thanks fellas--I appreciate all the advice. I love my current truck and the thought of losing $5-7K and getting a hemi in return makes me cringe... despite the fact that most of what I've read bears out that the Hemi would likely do a satisfactory job of meeting my towing needs and would be an easier drive around town with less maintenance hassles and expense than the Cummins.

My truck only has 37K miles on it and the Cummins is just getting broken in... and it's paid for! The G56 has loosened up and shifts like a car. Fuel mileage is also getting better too--15 in town and 19+ on the Interstate this last weekend running 75-80 (based on overhead display). Have never had a single problem or CEL with this truck since new--100% trouble free except for the oil level rising a little between oil changes which has always bugged me just a little bit. The $120 oil changes are getting old and I always keep the EB on and let the turbo cool down for a few minutes before shutting my truck off after highway driving or towing. Last trailer tow from Michigan (old trailer about 6. 5K# loaded) netted me an average around 12mpg hand calculated. A Hemi in a 6200lb 3/4 truck will come nowhere close to that loaded, and might be good for 14-15mpg in normal driving unloaded.

I will say though I was impressed with the 2011 Hemi 2500 I test drove--it does drive nice!

One other thing I've noticed too in the research I'm doing is that the Cummins has unbeatable resale value. My truck is 3 years old and is worth $26,500 on a trade in based on Kelly Blue Book and the dealer wanted to give me $26K to trade for the Hemi. That's amazing resale value, especially considering I only paid $31,700 for it brand new (got a smoking deal). Not so with the Hemi--if my truck had a hemi it would only be worth 19K at best on a trade in (and it would be a 2500 since you couldn't get the hemi in a 3500 in 2007).

HB--I like the idea of reducing the air pressure in the tires. How much air pressure could I give up before I risk hurting the tires or running tire pressures too low to be safe? Right now, I run 60 psi. Still have the original Michelins and they have about 50% tread left. Also the idea of taking a leaf out of the springs might help as well.

Surf--will check out the Kelderman idea too. The back seat for the kids is part of the equation but given the fact that they only ride back there when the whole family goes camping (we take the car when we go out around town) we can live with the QC for now.

MChrist--I test drove a Tundra--nice truck and it would probably work for my needs. But the dealer was mighty proud of that CrewMax Limited with the big V-8 and 4wd. I could get a Ram 2500 Cummins for about $1-2K more than the Tundra and the 2500 hemi for about $6K less.

The same thing with the Chevy HDs. The Silverado with the 6. 2L V8 goes $39K new at the local dealer, they are nearly as much as the 2500 Ram with the Cummins. The Duramax Chevy I looked at was $48K. I didn't look at the Fords... would only consider the F150... not confident in the Superduties with their history of engine problems.

If I could make my current truck ride a little smoother ride it might be alright. Right now it rides like a skateboard. So any more ideas for making that possible are appreciated. That's probably my first choice at this point... . but I'm still undecided. Will take my time on this and shop around--the prices above reflect a couple quick visits to the local dealers.

Will know for sure how bad this back thing is tomorrow after I see the neurosurgeon. Could be something as minor is lopping off a tiny part of my herniated disc (L3/L4) to getting the disc taken out, fusing the two vertebrae together and wiring it all back together with titanium screws, rods and a cage.

Man I wish I was 25 again!

Here's a picture of my truck as it looks today:

 

[HBarlow]

... ... ... . HB--I like the idea of reducing the air pressure in the tires. How much air pressure could I give up before I risk hurting the tires or running tire pressures too low to be safe? Right now, I run 60 psi. Still have the original Michelins and they have about 50% tread left. Also the idea of taking a leaf out of the springs might help as well.
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ..... :

I haven't done it so have to guess. I'd try experimenting a little comparing your seat of the pants opinion of the ride over a known rough section of road and the look of the Michelin sidewalls and casing temperature after a long commute.

Try 50psi then 40psi. Keep the heavy Cummins engine on the front tires in mind. I think I've read comments on TDR that some members have run their drw tires as low as about 35psi.

 

[BEmmert]

I run 60-65 in the front and 35-40 in the rear on both my old 98. 5 and my 2010 3500 srw. I have gotten the best wear and ride by doing this while running empty. They are load range E so the side walls are pretty stout and dont balloon out at those pressures. Try it, worse case you dont like it and have to pump them back up.

 

[AH64ID]

If you are still running the OE tire then a different tire will make a world of differnce. When I went to 285 toyo's the ride was night and day.

The other thing to consider is putting the 4th gen body mounts on the truck, I think I have read they will bolt up, just not sure on the cost. But if you consider how the 10's ride and the only real difference for ride is the body mounts, its not a hard thing to fix. I would like to do this to my 05 after riding in a few '10's.

 

[MChrist]

Experiment with air pressures. If not towing, I would try 45 up front and 35 in the rear. I wouldn't suggest lower than that, but you can try, just keep feeling the sidewalls after long drives, even short ones.
Bilstein shocks front and rear also help a lot. I just recently went to Carli Progressive springs in the front, and they help too, they are just a bit tall for my liking. I'll have to remove them and take two inches out of the height by cutting the springs.
If you want to try the cheap stuff first, #1: lower your tire pressure. #2: add four 50# bags of sand/salt to the back between tailgate and wheel well. #3: Bilstein shocks. I would have to suggest that order. The progressive springs are OK, but probably not worth the $, especially if you have to pay to pull them twice and modify them, like I will.
BTW, I share your pain... bulged disc between L4 and L5, and just turned 43 as well!!!

 

[AH64ID]

Experiment with air pressures. If not towing, I would try 45 up front and 35 in the rear. I wouldn't suggest lower than that, but you can try, just keep feeling the sidewalls after long drives, even short ones.

Boy thats low. I run about 40/30 on dirt roads, and the tires look like they don't have enough air for the weight. Remember the front axle of these is over 4500lbs as it comes from the factory. So thats 70% of the tire weight, so with rough tire math they need to be at about 55psi to be at 70% of their rated capacity. I wouldn't go lower that 50 without checking tire temp after a few miles of driving. The lowest I run in the front on the street is 60psi and 45 rear.

 

[MChrist]

Just have to experiment. I have run these pressures before, but then again, I have the Nitto Dura Grapplers, in 285 size, so my load capacity is 3750# per tire at 80 psi.
I'm prepping for a camping trip as I type this, and my pressures are 60 front, 58 rear. After towing at 65 mph for an hour, my rears are barely warm. I haven't weighed my camper, but I guess it is around 7500#, so tongue weight may be 800#, just guessing. Also, 2 adults, 2 kids, and maybe 400# in the bed.
By comparison, my camper tires are at max (50) and are warmer than my rear truck tires after an hour.
Obviously, if your rear tires look flat at 35, then don't drive it...

 

[AH64ID]

Yeah, I used to run the 285 toyo's with a 3750# rating and would run about 70/70 when towing, I like air pressure just a lot more stable. They never got warm either. I just with the OE rims were rated higher so the extra rating of the tire could be used.