Natural gas??

[bnelson]

With natural gas prices falling and diesel at almost record highs, has anyone come across a method of using natural gas in a way similar to propane or methanol injection to reduce total fuel cost for our diesels?

 

[rscurtis]

I think that would be the ideal way to use NG-maybe not so much for a PU, as the cost of the hardware is so high, but I see it as an option in OTR trucks. Diesel fuel could be used as a pilot ignition source, eliminating the need for spark ignition. Natural gas would be the main power source, as today's OTR truck engines with their lower compression ratios are right where natural gas likes to be. Once the supply of NG is used up, the engine would revert back to full diesel operation until the NG is replenished. This would eliminate the "range anxiety" of a NG only vehicle, and would allow the fueling infrastructure to be built as needed, instead of ending up as a boondoggle like Arnie's proposed "Hydrogen Highway" when everyone was enamored with fuel cells.



Another way to use NG is to make synthetic diesel fuel from it, and use the existing infrastructure.

 

[LNaugle]

I live in the area of natural gas fields and believe that there is a shop in our town called western slope trailer sales and they are doing the conversions and am pretty sure they converted a duramax... .

 

[TGVET]

I live in the area of natural gas fields and believe that there is a shop in our town called western slope trailer sales and they are doing the conversions and am pretty sure they converted a duramax... .

They have done 5 conversions, including a 2011 Ram 6. 7. Cost is $8500. Its a dual-fuel system w/a 21gal. carbon fiber NG tank that fits inside a standard width truck tool box. 35-45 mpg's. I really like the idea of NG and I have thought for many years that ALL OTR trucks and buses should be using NG leaving ULSD for cars and smaller truck. If the price was 1/2 the cost, I'd jump right on the conversion but with nearly 8000. 00 going into my 05 for upgrades and a transmission rebuild (6000. 00) at 246,000 now on my truck, I'm wondering what will be the next major repair expense I should save for...

http://wstrailers.com/

 

[rscurtis]

I'l like to see the math on that "35-45 MPG" figure. That could be the diesel mileage figure while using NG, or the NG mileage while using more diesel than pilot ignition, but not both.

 

[Motorhead]

They have done 5 conversions, including a 2011 Ram 6. 7. Cost is $8500. Its a dual-fuel system w/a 21gal. carbon fiber NG tank that fits inside a standard width truck tool box. 35-45 mpg's. I really like the idea of NG and I have thought for many years that ALL OTR trucks and buses should be using NG leaving ULSD for cars and smaller truck. If the price was 1/2 the cost, I'd jump right on the conversion but with nearly 8000. 00 going into my 05 for upgrades and a transmission rebuild (6000. 00) at 246,000 now on my truck, I'm wondering what will be the next major repair expense I should save for...



Western Slope Trailer Sales --- Western Colorado's Largest Trailer Dealer

I question the 35-45MPG. natural gas doesn't have near the BTU that gasoline or Diesel has. If you take a Gasoline engine at say 100hp at the crank and convert it to NG it ends up with about 80hp.

 

[JamesStevens]

Why not use propane, is already readily available and more BTU's then natural gas??

 

[Wingate]

we've been doing emissions certification testing on 2500hp. Cat Frac engines at our shop. . I hear there is more testing to be done next month. .

The process is actually failry simple, bring the engine up and online on diesel, slowly transition NG into the low pressure side of the intake system. ( the turbo compressor wheel actually blends it) as the NG content increases, the ECM will back off the amount of diesel fuel trying to maintain desired engine RPM..... If load suddenly increases, the ECM will catch it and add diesel fuel... . NG is cheap, abundant, comes out of US soil, clean, and would most definitely help our economy...

These NG systems are also being used on diesel-electric drilling rigs...

 

[BLoging]

cng coming to western wisconsin at about $1. 65 a gallon for the current price for this part of wisconsin!

 

[rscurtis]

Why not use propane, is already readily available and more BTU's then natural gas??

AFAIK, it's a lot more expensive. It's also more difficult to start in the cold, but I guess that wouldn't be a problem with diesel fuel. NG may have more energy density than propane for the space available to carry it.

 

[Bill Stockard]

These NG systems are also being used on diesel-electric drilling rigs...

I grew up in the Conroe (TX) oil field in the '50s. The oil well drilling and support equipment was natural gas powered. Before well drilling began, a temporary gas pipeline was strung along the road ditch from the nearest natural gas pipeline access point to the well site. Of course, back then they didn't have the sophisticated electric drilling rigs being used now.



Bill

 

[Wingate]

I grew up in the Conroe (TX) oil field in the '50s. The oil well drilling and support equipment was natural gas powered. Before well drilling began, a temporary gas pipeline was strung along the road ditch from the nearest natural gas pipeline access point to the well site. Of course, back then they didn't have the sophisticated electric drilling rigs being used now.



Bill

yep... we have a old timer that works for us that "broke out" on an old NG rig. . Ive heard those old stories about having to run piping from another well that might be a mile or two away... .

These days most rigs are diesel electric... 3,4, or 5 1500 hp. gensets all running 1200rpm making electricity. . the newest thing out right now is a variant of a VFD ... Variable Frequency Drive.

 

[Bill Stockard]

yep... we have a old timer that works for us that "broke out" on an old NG rig. . Ive heard those old stories about having to run piping from another well that might be a mile or two away... .

Back then NG was so cheap it wasn't worth the expense for a pipeline to collect it. NG was "flared off" when it was mixed with the crude. Our night sky glowed from all the flares burning.



Bill

 

[Mikey-KE7LBB]

Back then NG was so cheap it wasn't worth the expense for a pipeline to collect it. NG was "flared off" when it was mixed with the crude. Our night sky glowed from all the flares burning.



Bill

It's still going on...

 

[RustyJC]

Dual fuel engines (gas/diesel) have been around for a long time. These engines can switch back and forth from straight diesel to gas/diesel operation under full load, depending on availability and price of fuel. In gas/diesel mode, the engines run on 96% to 98. 5% natural gas (methane) with 4% to 1. 5% (depending on the engine) diesel being injected as an ignition source. An example of one of these engines in power generation service is shown below (6300 kWe @ 400 RPM, turbocharged 4-cycle V-20, 15. 5" bore x 22" stroke).



During gas/diesel operation, air/fuel ratio controls are necessary to keep the air/gas mixture in an optimum range for combustion and emissions since the engines are operating on a modified Otto cycle. These are lean burn engines (they operate on the lean side of stochiometric), so too rich = detonation while too lean = misfire. When they switch to straight diesel, the air/fuel ratio controls drop out and the engines run on maximum air just like any other Diesel cycle engine.



Rusty

 

[Bill Stockard]

It's still going on...

Isn't it mainly "sour gas" presently being flared off?



Bill

 

[TGVET]

There you have it folks. . So lets all start converting and get those retrofit dollars down to a 1000 bucks or less... Is it really that complicated. . Oo.

 

[Motorhead]

Dual fuel engines (gas/diesel) have been around for a long time. These engines can switch back and forth from straight diesel to gas/diesel operation under full load, depending on availability and price of fuel. In gas/diesel mode, the engines run on 96% to 98. 5% natural gas (methane) with 4% to 1. 5% (depending on the engine) diesel being injected as an ignition source. An example of one of these engines in power generation service is shown below (6300 kWe @ 400 RPM, turbocharged 4-cycle V-20, 15. 5" bore x 22" stroke).

During gas/diesel operation, air/fuel ratio controls are necessary to keep the air/gas mixture in an optimum range for combustion and emissions since the engines are operating on a modified Otto cycle. These are lean burn engines (they operate on the lean side of stochiometric), so too rich = detonation while too lean = misfire. When they switch to straight diesel, the air/fuel ratio controls drop out and the engines run on maximum air just like any other Diesel cycle engine.

Rusty

I wonder if I could get that V-20 to fit under the hood of my truck???

 

[RHestand]

There you have it folks. . So lets all start converting and get those retrofit dollars down to a 1000 bucks or less... Is it really that complicated. . Oo.

Does anyone have any pictures of this conversion?

I'm mostly curious about CNG tank.

 

[Motorhead]

I have seen 5. 9 and 8. 3 spark fired NG engines. The idea of using diesel just as an ignition source to fire a NG cylinder charge fascinates me. It would be nice to have an option to run just Diesel or NG fired by diesel.