How often does this happen I wonder?

[lschleif]

A guy buys a year or two year old Ram, it is bone stock as he wants the balance of the warranty. He has it for a while and a drivetrain problem occurs, so into the dealer he goes thinking all is well. The dealer tells him there is a problem, but warranty won’t cover it because it has had a programmer on it at some previous time. What is the best way to make sure this does not happen? Pay the dealer to check it out on the test drive? I’m thinking of upgrading and don’t want this to happen to me.

Thanks for the input.

Larry

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

IF you value the warranty, best have the dealership you're most likely to use for warranty work check it out...

 

[rwitt]

Gary,
Take the truck to your dealer and have them check it before you purchase. If the selling party has a problem with that that, best to move on to something else.
Rich

 

[HBarlow]

I believe that is a fairly common problem and one I've preached about here in this forum when members have inquired about purchase of a used truck.

TDR member Mike Mullenax told me a skilled and savvy Cummins trained Dodge service tech can determine if a truck has had a programmer installed because some engine operating data will be reset/restarted by the programmer and will not match after the box is removed. Mike didn't provide a lot of detail and I don't remember now exactly what data he mentioned.

IMO the possibility of a previous programmer installed on a late model used Ram would cause me not to buy any used truck unless from a personal friend who I KNEW had not installed a magic black destruction box.

Bob 4x4 and cerberusiam have recently written about how fragile they believe the MOPAR six speed is even behind an unmolested engine and how even operating a magic black box in the economy mode alters torque managment protections and can kill the transmission.

 

[Jim W]

A guy buys a year or two year old Ram, it is bone stock as he wants the balance of the warranty. He has it for a while and a drivetrain problem occurs, so into the dealer he goes thinking all is well. The dealer tells him there is a problem, but warranty won't cover it because it has had a programmer on it at some previous time. What is the best way to make sure this does not happen? Pay the dealer to check it out on the test drive? I'm thinking of upgrading and don't want this to happen to me.
Thanks for the input.
Larry

Larry,
What you have in your signature on your 99 would void the warranty on a 6. 7L Cummins engine from Ram.

Now I am not as self righteous has other and tell you not to buy a used truck that has a 6. 7L engine in the truck.

What you need to do is make sure that the truck can be warranted by Ram as a used certified truck. What to me this means is the dealer has reviewed the truck and serviced it to Chrysler requirements and then can sell the truck with the remaining warranty on it.

Now all of the vehicle manufactures are looking for ways not to honor the warranties on any modification that have been applied to their vehicles. Such as CAI added, Gages added and or programmer added to name a few. Just the nature of the beast today with warrinties.

Now according to Mad'E electronic. Com site the makers of the “Smarty Tuner”. The ECM will record that a programmer was used on the 6. 7L engine and will leave a tell tale behind on this ECM which Chrysler will see with their service computer when read. So the dealer can easily see if a programmer was used on the truck at any time.

I hope this information as eased your mind somewhat on buying a used truck.

Jim W.

 

[lschleif]

My problem is I always buy used and I usually prefer to buy from a private individual so I can see how it has been taken care of, driven etc. Only now it would seem prudent that if I buy from anyone outside of a Dodge/Ram dealer I had better make arrangements for them to hook up to the ECM before the sale is complete. This complicates things a bit. I want to upgrade to a newer Ram, but my trying to get an all in one tow vehicle/daily driver dictates wanting a warranty especially with all the latest emissions junk. I may have to rethink the up grade. Thanks for the info.
Larry

 

[mfurrh55]

Just about anything but a 6. 7 is already out of warranty, especially if it has over 100,000 miles on it, Mine was out of warranty after 36,000 miles, and i had enhancements on it from day one, truck has never been to the shop, Runs and drives great, i did take the bully dog off and put it back to stock,I did remove the CC, but it is sitting in the shop in case it needs to be put back where it came from, it gets 2 miles to the gallon of fuel better than it did with the controller, I get 18-19 mpg with it at stock, and about 16-17 w/controller on it,anyway i like my 5. 9 and i'll keep it as long as i can afford to put diesel in it, Monte

 

[HBarlow]

Larry,
What you have in your signature on your 99 would void the warranty on a 6. 7L Cummins engine from Ram.

Now I am not as self righteous has other and tell you not to buy a used truck that has a 6. 7L engine in the truck.

What you need to do is make sure that the truck can be warranted by Ram as a used certified truck. What to me this means is the dealer has reviewed the truck and serviced it to Chrysler requirements and then can sell the truck with the remaining warranty on it.

Now all of the vehicle manufactures are looking for ways not to honor the warranties on any modification that have been applied to their vehicles. Such as CAI added, Gages added and or programmer added to name a few. Just the nature of the beast today with warrinties.

Now according to Mad'E electronic. Com site the makers of the “Smarty Tuner”. The ECM will record that a programmer was used on the 6. 7L engine and will leave a tell tale behind on this ECM which Chrysler will see with their service computer when read. So the dealer can easily see if a programmer was used on the truck at any time.

I hope this information as eased your mind somewhat on buying a used truck.

Jim W.

Jim,

I suppose you intended the "self righteous" label for me. I understand your resentment. We are coming from entirely different perspectives on the issue. You have a programmer on your truck so you defend it. I believe a programmer is very likely to cause severe and costly damage and that caution is critical when considering a late model used Ram w/6. 7 engine. I warn against using programmers.

Dealership managers know all the tricks. They practice them every day. Having worked in dealerships and observed up close and personal I believe it is entirely possible for a dealership to take in a late model used Ram on trade without knowledge or concern about a previously installed programmer. If challenged by a request to examine and certify the truck their ethics will easily allow them to put a "certified used truck" label on such a truck without making a sincere attempt to have a service tech examine the ECM data to determine if a programmer was installed. A dealership is absolutely not going to certify in writing over the owner's signature that they have examined the truck for evidence of prior modification and that they will back the warranty 100%. They'll cheerfully tell you that face to face with a slick smile but it ain't gonna happen that they put it in writing.

Look at it from their point of view. They've invested $20k or more to buy a used truck to make a sale on a new one. There is no way in hell they're going to examine the ECM data and confess to a prospect that "we found evidence of tampering so we can't sell this truck. " Does anyone realistically think they're going to replace an engine and driveline at their expense and then certify it for sale? I don't believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the current administration in the DC sewer, or 100% integrity by an automobile dealer.

I'm sorry if that offends you but I live in the real world and that's the way I see it.

 

[Jim W]

Harvey,
I did not mean just you; there are others who too say do not buy a used 6. 7L truck do to the programmer issue and emission hardware on them.

I also stated that the user;if he bought from a dealer it should be a certified truck. I have two old high school buddies that are in the selling business of cars. Both are new car managers at different car dealers and I have asked them in the past what does a certified used vehicle mean. They both have stated that the car /truck are still warranted by the manufacture for the remaining warranty period and have been inspected to be able to use this remaining warranty. The customer receives a copy of the inspection report and the remaining warranty at time of purchasing. To me if the dealer failed to honor this warranty on the vehicle later you would have a good case against them in small claims court.

Another point I would be leery of buying any used diesel truck now since the EPA has clamped down on the newer designed engines. Most people are buying up the older design trucks like the 5. 9L engines and adding programmers to them so they can still be legal, except in your favorite state of Calif. Just look at the used truck market and see how much a 5. 9L Ram is selling for.

Jim W.

 

[HBarlow]

Jim,

I think you're reading a lot more into the "certified used car" label than is actually there. I have no doubt that a dealer sales manager will assure a buyer that the truck is covered under warranty but when a major engine or drivetrain problem shows up soon after purchase and presents a huge bill running into thousands of dollars they or the area Dodge rep will discover previous modifications and Dodge will void the warranty. The dealer's response will be "we don't control the warranty, we only administer it. "

Dodge has extensive warranty records on our trucks and knows all the red flags. They are not gullible and will not hesitate to void a warranty when evidence of tampering is found.

Ask your sales manager friends if they'll guarantee in writing that no tampering was ever done and the dealership stands behind the Dodge warranty even if Dodge should cancel it for tampering. And then ask the dealer principal if he will sign and release that written guarantee.

I know you want to believe that a dealer promise like that will overcome tampering because you're invested in the issue. I'm not buying it.

 

[DiamondDiver]

I had a BullyDog on my out of warranty 2005 5. 9L CRD 3500, it made a huge difference. I still use the BD on my 2012 6. 7L 2500 as a monitor, I have not uploaded the tune to the ECM. After talking with a trusted Ram diesel service tech manager, he informed me that all tuners leave a fingerprint and Cummins would void the engine warranty if a tuner was installed. I asked him if I used the BD as a monitor and did not upload the tune would the warranty be voided, he informed me that would not void the warranty.



The interesting thing that he told me about is that Cummins warranties the engine and Ram could care less if you tuned it or not. I remember reading the warranties when I purchased the vehicle, but the Cummins aspect did not register at the time. These new vehicles have plenty of torque and power and the only reason to tune an engine is if you choose to delete and ignore the warranty all together. This is a personal choice and I understand why someone would choose to delete and risk voiding the warranty and subject themselves to federal charges.



I purchased an extended warranty and chose to keep my truck stock until the warranty expires. At that point I may delete and tune my truck. Whatever someone does with their truck is a personal decision, but you should be aware of the risks involved in modifying the ECM on a vehicle or buying a vehicle that has been modified. If you want to buy a used truck with warranty still on the vehicle, get it checked out at a dealer to be sure the warranty is still valid.

 

[HBarlow]

I don't remember if I've ever seen the engine warranty issue clarified in writing by either Cummins or Dodge. I've read and heard claims over the years I've been here that it was Cummins who provides the warranty and also that Dodge provides the warranty.

I think the most convincing statements claim that Dodge buys the engines without warranty and is responsible for the warranty. Since Cummins distributors/dealers have no participation at the Dodge consumer level I think it is more likely that Cummins is not involved and only Dodge offers the warranty.

 

[mfurrh55]

If you put a new ECM on it,will it tell if you have had a programmer on it?, just curious, Monte

 

[RonD]

Just do what you would do if you were buying a Porsche, get a pre purchase inspection at a Dodge Dealer, they will run all the service history, check out your concers and let you know what is wrong, very simple, take the list to the owner and reduce the price

A guy buys a year or two year old Ram, it is bone stock as he wants the balance of the warranty. He has it for a while and a drivetrain problem occurs, so into the dealer he goes thinking all is well. The dealer tells him there is a problem, but warranty won't cover it because it has had a programmer on it at some previous time. What is the best way to make sure this does not happen? Pay the dealer to check it out on the test drive? I'm thinking of upgrading and don't want this to happen to me.
Thanks for the input.
Larry

 

[DiamondDiver]

Harvey from what I understand Cummins warranties the engine for manufacturer defects and Ram the drivetrain and the rest of the vehicle.

I found this link on the cummins website
http://www.cummins-sp.com/engines/warranty/ISC_ISL_Warranty.pdf

Ram probably handles all the Cummins claims and Cummins involvement would not be apparent to the customer. Ram may in fact be the purchaser of the engines and the legitimate claimant for the Cummins warranty, not the owner of the vehicle. The bottom line is that the owner is covered unless they perform an action that voids the warranty.

 

[HBarlow]

Harvey from what I understand Cummins warranties the engine for manufacturer defects and Ram the drivetrain and the rest of the vehicle.

I found this link on the cummins website
http://www.cummins-sp.com/engines/warranty/ISC_ISL_Warranty.pdf

Ram probably handles all the Cummins claims and Cummins involvement would not be apparent to the customer. Ram may in fact be the purchaser of the engines and the legitimate claimant for the Cummins warranty, not the owner of the vehicle. The bottom line is that the owner is covered unless they perform an action that voids the warranty.

That link is irrelevant. It's for the ISL/ISC engines which obviously are serviced and warrantied by Cummins. I do not believe Cummins provides the warranty on the Cummins engine installed in the Dodge platform.

 

[HBarlow]

Just do what you would do if you were buying a Porsche, get a pre purchase inspection at a Dodge Dealer, they will run all the service history, check out your concers and let you know what is wrong, very simple, take the list to the owner and reduce the price

Sounds good but it won't provide any protection against an engine that has had a programmer previously installed and removed. Nothing shows up in a computer check of the VIN. The only way I am aware of that molestation can be detected is by downloading engine operating history from the ECM using the Dodge service computer plugged into the port under the dash. Once the data is downloaded a knowledgeable tech can study and compare data such as engine service hours, odometer miles, and other. I am not aware of any red flag that jumps out. Analysis is required.

 

[crabjoe]

From my understanding, the way dealers/Chrysler determines if there was a programmer on a truck is by looking at the log file. Every time the ECM is flashed, the log file gets updated. Chrysler knows how many times a truck should have been flashed, since they're the ones that supply the factory flashes. So if Chrysler shows your ECM should have been flashed 5 times, but the log file shows 10, it's pretty much tells them the ECM software has been tampered with. .

 

[mfurrh55]

What's with all the flashes?,My 07 5. 9 has never been back to the dealership since i bought it March 30th 2007

 

[JJPage]

From my understanding, the way dealers/Chrysler determines if there was a programmer on a truck is by looking at the log file. Every time the ECM is flashed, the log file gets updated. Chrysler knows how many times a truck should have been flashed, since they're the ones that supply the factory flashes. So if Chrysler shows your ECM should have been flashed 5 times, but the log file shows 10, it's pretty much tells them the ECM software has been tampered with. .

What's with all the flashes?,My 07 5. 9 has never been back to the dealership since i bought it March 30th 2007

Monte, That is Crabjoe's point, it shows a programmer other than Dodge/Chrysler has been in play. For example, the ECM on my 03 has never been re-flashed by a dealer, because it has only been back twice, once for the first free oil change, and the second time on the road at DSM/Kellogg, niether time was my ECM touched. However my ECM has been re-flashed multiple times by Smarty, on our 3rd gens supposedly there is no footprint, that is not so with the 4th gens, that's what HB is stating, a savvy tech will be able to spot indescrepencies.