News flash , 708 Sag steering gear mystery solved

[mysteryman]

Hi All, Well it has been many years since I gave this issue much thought. The steering gears in our trucks from 1972 threw 1993 were made by Saginaw... Yes you guessed it . A GM co. The model was 708. . The 708 was a vary good gear . It rarely failed. It's only real problem was that the sector shaft would get loose after years of use. My solution in years past was to just install a NEW unit and be done with it for another 200,000 miles Well now there are no new units left to be had. ALL the rebuilts I have seen seem to have loose sector shafts right out of the box. Now I have no choice but to solve the problem and fix them myself. . I have torn down some of the worn out units as well as the remans to see just what the problem was . None of them had much wear on the sector shafts . The remans had new bearings in them. The sector shafts were tight on the bench. So I put a few of the remans back on a truck . With a helper rocking the steering wheel I could see the sector shaft wig waging side to side. . Hmmmmm... . They were all fine on the bench. . So I tore them down again . . I pressed the sector shaft needle bearings out of the housings. I got out all my precision measuring equipment and proceeded to measure every bore in the main housing's. The sector shaft bearing bores were egg shaped in every housing. They were checking tight on the bench because the needle bearing has its own cage keeping it round. It is only when installed on a truck that enough force can be exerted on the sector shaft to deform the bearing to the deformed housing causing the shaft to wig wag left and right.

Ok . this s not all that tough to figure out. So why aren't the rebuilders fixing the problem ??
I called / wrote all the major rebuilders in the USA . They all proclaimed that they never had any problem like that ... Yeah . . I guess thats why all their steering gears are junk... .

The solution is that the housings are going to have to be bored , sleeved . To test my theory I used an expansion reamer to make the hole round. I pressed the bearing in with shims stock to get the correct clearance . . Installed it on the truck... Zero slop at the wheel... .
I am having some carbide cutters made now for the boring the housings. I am waiting for quotes on making the tubing for the sleevs... It is going to take . 040 to clean up the bores. I contacted several bearing manufacturers to get quotes for making over sized bearings. . The quotes were off the chart ! So sleeving is our only option. I used shim stock for the experiment. But that will NOT work for long term use. IT WOULD BE DANGEROUS to do so.
After I get the tooling and tubing I will offer the repair to everyone. I can rebuild the whole gear or just repair the housing if the owner wants to rebuild it himself and save some money.
I have also acquired all the soft parts to rebuild the vac and p/s pumps as well...
Stay tuned for further details..... MM

 

[ENafziger]

Wow!!! Great deal... thanks once again for digging in to help keep these old trucks on the road!

--Eric

 

[DVolk]

Has any one tried out those Borgenson boxes ?

 

[pwerwagn]

Awesome News!! I just bought a "rebuild kit" for my 93 box... only to find out its just a seal kit (dunno what I was expecting). This box has a lot of play. I will be looking forward to your fix for sure!!

 

[mysteryman]

I am working out all the details and tolerances out right now. It won't be long till I have some ready. so stay tuned

 

[James1]

The steering gears in our trucks from 1972 through 1993 were made by Saginaw... Yes you guessed it. A GM co. The model was 708. . The 708 was a very good gear. It rarely failed. Its only real problem was that the sector shaft would get loose after years of use.

MM:

IIRC, the steering gears in the mid-1970s 4WD trucks were "reverse rotation" -- whereas for the First Gen CTDs, Mother Mopar utilized the same steering box for the 2WD and 4WD trucks. (These 4WD trucks then required an adapter plate to secure the steering gear to the truck frame; that plate has an unfortunate tendency to shatter into 3 pieces. )

Anyway, do both the regular rotation and reverse rotation boxes have this problem with deformed housings around the sector shaft bearings?

TIA

 

[mysteryman]

Yes they do. The reverse worm gear was used on 4x4 trucks from 72 threw early 77. this was due to the angle bracket that mounted the steering gear on its side. The sector shaft was then horizontal with the pitman arm pointing strait to the ground. This was done to the 4x4 trucks to cause the load from the gear box to be applied to the frame
length wise . It was a much better system than the later trucks got. . (like the 89-93 4x4's have) It was changed to save money. The later system put the torque on the frame left to right. (it tries to twist the frame) That is why the frames break out when you put wide rims and tires. I put the early style system on all my 4x4 trucks . The drag links were solid from the factory. This made it so you could not center the steering gear. I make drag links with an adjusting sleeve in the middle so I can easily center the steering wheel. I had thought about making conversion kits and offering them to everyone. I never did due to cost. I did not think enough people would buy them. I would make them if there were enough people interested. . I would want to see at least 12 people commit and put a 50% deposit down before I would start...
Those interested can PM me or call.

MM:

IIRC, the steering gears in the mid-1970s 4WD trucks were "reverse rotation" -- whereas for the First Gen CTDs, Mother Mopar utilized the same steering box for the 2WD and 4WD trucks. (These 4WD trucks then required an adapter plate to secure the steering gear to the truck frame; that plate has a unfortunate tendency to shatter into 3 pieces. )

Anyway, do both the regular rotation and reverse rotation boxes have this problem with deformed housings around the sector shaft bearings?

TIA

 

[mysteryman]

I have built 3 of them now and they are on the road. It is a 100% success ! The steering is tighter than they were new! I am working on a video. I am going to start with offering the bushinged housing with with bearing installed and a rebuild kit. Those that want ME to do the whole rebuild will have to take a number. I am an old man and move kinda slow. I have a lot of friends that keep me vary busy. I need a teenager that is eager to learn hanging around here to help. . They might be rarer than our trucks ! Anyone interested in a rebushed housing or that wants to get on the list. PM or call me. ... . MM

I am working out all the details and tolerances out right now. It won't be long till I have some ready. so stay tuned

 

[James1]

MM:

So if I convert to the reverse rotation box do I still need to ream and bushing the housing or will a rebuilt steering gear from a reputable shop such as Red Head be sufficient?

Is the reverse rotation box also called "Saginaw 708"?

Thanks again.

Jim

 

[HHhuntitall]

Yep. Another fine idea you've gotten. The last three I've gotten all have a notice on the side of the box that say something like,"NOTICE: Side to Side slop is normal, not a sign of a defective box. This is normal in the rebuild process. It does not mean the box is defective. " I call BS on that, they didn't have that slop from the factory... . I've been looking for a way to try to rebuild these, but no one offers parts... . I've got the teenager around willing to learn, but still don't have time to work on one as indepth as you... . I keep him busy with oil leaks, fuel pumps, turbos, and the occasional A/C job... . We tore into a NV4500 last week, and he was lost in the complexity... . He just loves it... . I have a hard time keeping him from licking the carbon off the fenders!!! Again, let me know when you get the video up on this, too... .

 

[mysteryman]

Hi Jim, I don't know about readhead. I suspect that they are no different than anyone else's rebuild .

The reverse rotation box was still a 708. I know some of the chevy vans also used the reverse worm gear 708.

I am not sure if the housings have the same mounts as the Dodge or not. We certainly could rob the parts out of them and put the parts in a Dodge Housing. .

MM:



So if I convert to the reverse rotation box do I still need to ream and bushing the housing or will a rebuilt steering gear from a reputable shop such as Red Head be sufficient?



Is the reverse rotation box also called "Saginaw 708"?



Thanks again.



Jim

 

[mysteryman]

"NOTICE: Side to Side slop is normal, not a sign of a defective box. " That statement is 2 sided. . there are what is called "reaction springs " on the wormshaft (input shaft) They are dome shaped washers that compress when the steering wheel is turned thus allowing hydraulic pressure to be applied to one side or the other side of the piston which reduces the effort to turn the wheel. There can be some lost motion with the reaction springs/spool valve. The 708 in our trucks have vary stiff reaction springs. No lost motion can be detected with the unit sitting on the bench. Lost motion can only be found with the unit installed and the engine off. Once the engine is running /power steering pump making pressure , WHEELS STRAIGHT AHEAD /Steering wheel centered. There should be no detectable slop in the wheel !!!! So all in all the statement is Bull Sh. . They are just covering their rear ends for the poor work they are doing... The real problem is the American consumer. Most don't want to pay a fair price for a good product. Most want cheap and give no consideration to how good or how long the product they buy will last. . That leaves the few that want the good products with no where to go. The rebuilders only want to build products that will have high sales numbers. I think that Advance auto parts and auto zone gets about 160. 00 for a remaned 708 . Rather cheap. They sell a lot of them. They work but are loose as hell. But lets say the price was 5 to 600. 00 for a good one. How many do you think they would sell at that price? Vary few I am sure. It takes me about 4 hours to bore , make the bushing and hand fit it to the case while holding a . 001" tolerance. And thats just the housing. It still has to be reassembled. And lets not forget the cost of the parts. . I only took on this project because my friends and I wanted to have tight steering in our trucks and no one else wanted to build the gears properly.

Yep. Another fine idea you've gotten. The last three I've gotten all have a notice on the side of the box that say something like,"NOTICE: Side to Side slop is normal, not a sign of a defective box. This is normal in the rebuild process. It does not mean the box is defective. " I call BS on that, they didn't have that slop from the factory... . I've been looking for a way to try to rebuild these, but no one offers parts... . I've got the teenager around willing to learn, but still don't have time to work on one as indepth as you... . I keep him busy with oil leaks, fuel pumps, turbos, and the occasional A/C job... . We tore into a NV4500 last week, and he was lost in the complexity... . He just loves it... . I have a hard time keeping him from licking the carbon off the fenders!!! Again, let me know when you get the video up on this, too... .

 

[DVolk]

After years of driving sloping steering trucks a tight may cash a crash ??????

 

[Ncostello]

Like DVolk said... what about the boxes for sale in Geno's? No good?



And are the diesel boxes actually different than gasser models?



Thirdly... where do you source your seals from for box rebuilds? Are they commercial seals available at any decent bearing shop?

 

[mysteryman]

steering gears and shafts

I looked in geno's catalog. I see they are selling remans under the Borgeson brand name. I noticed they are charging 352. 00 for them. It better be good for that price. But some how I doubt it. Truck parts are kind of like gum ball machines. You put your money in and turn the knob but you really never know exactly what is going to come out. It only costs 352. 00 to find out what these gear boxes really are. I did notice that they had one part # for 89 to 93. This is a vary bad sign! 89 and 90 input shafts are clocked differently than 91 to 93. I guess they don't care. But centering your steering wheel will be interesting when you mix up the wrong parts. If you are using one of their steering joints/shafts you can line it up easy enough. But their steering shafts are DANGEROUS ! I have seen a few of them come loose at the steering gear. Using a single set screw/bolt to keep ujoint yoke on the splined input shaft is suicide ! Having an open ujoint is not as good as the stock shaft/pot joint. We made a large rubber boot to go over the square pot joint. It kind of looks like a CV JOINT BOOT.

If you use that boot on the stock shaft the joint will NEVER EVER FAIL AGAIN. . The reason they failed was because the small boot the trucks came with did not seal well enough. The pot joint would fill up with water ,salt ,sand ect then proceed to eat itself to death. Our big boot solved the problem 100%.

I will post the service bulletin on the subject below. If anyone cares I can post a picture of one tomorrow.



Gas and diesel steering gears are the same for any given model year. BUT there ere different ratios spline counts and hose fittings that were used over the years. And 72-77 4x4 had a left hand worm



Date: Apr. 16, 1993

Models: 1979-1993 (AD) Ram Pickup/Ram Cab Chassis/Ramcharger

Discussion:

A new repair package with a revised boot design has been developed to service the steering coupler on the intermediate steering column. If the steering coupler requires service, the new repair package should be used.

Parts Required:

1 Repair Package - Repair Procedure:

This involves release of a new repair package for the steering coupler with a revised boot design.

1. Remove and discard the existing cover and seal.

2. Disassemble the coupler and inspect the shoes, shoe retaining spring, internal bearing surfaces of the coupler body, and the shaft pin for evidence of wear. Replace any worn components.

3. Fill the coupler body 1/2 full with Multipurpose Grease, NGLI Grade 2 EP, such as MOPAR P/N 4318062 or equivalent.

4. Place the boot and clamp on the shaft.

5. Press the shoe pin onto the steering shaft so that it projects equal distance on the shaft.

6. Place the spring on the side of the shaft, straddling the shoo pin.

7. Place the shoes on the pin ends with the flat side towards the spring, engaging the tangs.

8. Squeeze the shoes together, compressing the spring, and push the assembly into the coupler body with the master spline on the upper shaft.

9. Drive in the NEW dowel pin flush with the outer surface of the coupler body.

10. Position the boot on the body and install the clamps on both ends. Be sure that the contact surfaces are free of grease.

11. Work the shaft in and out several times to distribute the grease in the assembly.

POLICY: information only

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NOTES



2800 738 SHOE X1

2925 492 SPRING

2266 743 PIN, FOR SHOE, SOLID

5200 6912 BODY D, trucks

6029 951 PIN, Roll

3579 522 BODY, B vans

4443 436AC SPRING AND PAW PACKAGE

4115549 body 81-90 D BODY

4740761 Steering Coupler BOOT KIT (big boot)

Like DVolk said... what about the boxes for sale in Geno's? No good?



And are the diesel boxes actually different than gasser models?



Thirdly... where do you source your seals from for box rebuilds? Are they commercial seals available at any decent bearing shop?

 

[HHhuntitall]

Are they still available from Dodge?!? Not many parts are there for the older trucks... . Or are you selling those, too?? Dorman started making the rebuild kits for the "Pots", and with some work, can be rebuilt fairly well, but those kits don't include the rubber boots... I've had several I've drilled and added grease zerks to, which makes a world of difference, as you can push the water out if it gets any in it...



Curiously, how are you going to center your carbide/boring tool? Does it fit down into the box to center itself?

 

[mysteryman]

If you are are speaking of 4740761 Steering Coupler BOOT KIT. As of 2 weeks go they were. They ran out of them a few years back. I raised hell and they did another run of which I had to buy 100 of them at 51. 00 a apiece. Ouch !
I had sold most of them before they were made. I kept enough to do all my trucks. If Chrysler does stop making them I will make them ! I posted a picture below of what they look like. As for Dorman , They make the pot joint also . It fits 78 to 90 The pot joint for 91-93 is the same EXCEPT for the pin hole location. The clock position of the pin is different 91-93. So if you use the early pot on 91-93 the steering wheel will not be centered. It will be off by 15 degrees. To correct for this you remove the steering wheel and locate the fat "master spline" Then using a small triangle file . You file right in the center of the master spline changing it from 1 fat into 2 skinny splines . Just keep filing till the wheel will go on in any position. Then put the wheel back on straight. You must be careful to have the wheel and the steering gear centered ! DO NOT EVER DO THIS TRICK FOR ANY OTHER REASON ! If your wheel is off center for any other reason you need to fix the problem in the suspension. Steering gears are only tight in the straight ahead position . There is slop built into the gear left and right of center. If there were not the wheel would not return on its own after making a turn...
I have also posted pictures of the sleeves I make and the 2 different bearings. Notice that there are only half as many needles in the first one. this was done to save money. The other bearing is the one that I use when I bore and bush the boxes. As for centering the reamer. No need it is self centering. The jig I made to hold the casting floats on the table of the boring machine. More to come later... ///MM

Are they still available from Dodge?!? Not many parts are there for the older trucks... . Or are you selling those, too?? Dorman started making the rebuild kits for the "Pots", and with some work, can be rebuilt fairly well, but those kits don't include the rubber boots... I've had several I've drilled and added grease zerks to, which makes a world of difference, as you can push the water out if it gets any in it...

Curiously, how are you going to center your carbide/boring tool? Does it fit down into the box to center itself?

 

[HHhuntitall]

Awesome! Thanks for the part number. I'll hit the stealership up later this week... . I guess when I was looking for them, it was during the time they had quit making them.



Well, let us know when you get some more pics up. I'm pretty excited to see what the reamer looks like, and see if I can fix one or two around here... . Oo.

 

[James1]

The reverse worm gear was used on 4x4 trucks from 72 through early 77. This was due to an angle bracket that mounted the steering gear on its side. The sector shaft was then horizontal, with the pitman arm pointing straight toward the ground. This was done to the 4x4 trucks to cause the load from the gear box to be applied to the frame length wise . It was a much better system than the later trucks got (like the 89-93 4x4's have). It was changed to save money. The later system put the torque on the frame left to right (it tries to twist the frame). That is why the frames break out when you put wide rims and tires.



I put the early style system on all my 4x4 trucks .

MM:



I believe the input shafts on the Reverse Rotation boxes utilized from 1972 to 1977 were splined differently than those on our 1989 to 1993 trucks? If so, what do you use for a steering shaft (to connect the steering column to the steering gearbox)?



Thanks,



Jim

 

[WalterJ]

I've found the Geno's "replacement reman" box is not a direct bolt on. The sector shaft needs a "flat" machined upon it to fit into my '04 pitman. I returned it with no issues, however it was a hassle overall not being able to install it when delivered. Chk my writeup re: box replacement; I went with full on new parts from dealer.