Injector test good but still white smoke

[Lebo]

Hi, I appreciate any help trying to figure this out. I have a 2007 5.9 2500 128K miles that has some history to it. I tried to edited my profile but just in case I messed it up here are the specifics. 2007 5.9, EFI Live, 60 HP over injectors, Gorerend valve body, and triple disc TC, billet input and flex plate, FASS, 5in straight pipe with aero resonator.

It would be a lengthy post if I provided all the background so for today I was just going to post the immediate issue. Recently the truck started smoking heavy white smoke on start up with a rough idle. I had it towed to a trusted shop where the mechanic pulled my injectors and sent them off for testing. He replaced my 60hp over injectors with 6 2004 stock injectors he had in the shop and the smoke and rough idle went away. Here is the catch, all my injectors tested good. They were tested on a Bosch testing machine at a Bosch authorized shop. My mechanic said he has never seen this situation before but is still leaning to bad injectors. I tend to agree but I have to admit it is hard to spend another $3500+ on injectors when the current ones I have tested good. I am concerned that maybe I am missing something. The current injectors are less than a year old. Any ideas? Thanks I really appreciate any input. Lebo

 

[Ozymandias]

Did you set the ECM back to stock?

 

[Crunch]

I had it towed to a trusted shop where the mechanic pulled my injectors and sent them off for testing. He replaced my 60hp over injectors with 6 2004 stock injectors he had in the shop and the smoke and rough idle went away. Here is the catch, all my injectors tested good. They were tested on a Bosch testing machine at a Bosch authorized shop.

Breakdown:
1. Trusted mechanic
2. Replaced injectors with ancient injectors
3. Problem went away
4. Suspected injectors tested good

I also think it sounds like your injectors have problems, and would suspect the testing procedures used on them. If you have faith in the testing done on them, the only way to rule out bad injectors would be to have the mechanic put your injectors back in and see if the problem comes back.

 

[seafish]

My advice is to call Todd at TC Diesel.

He simply has excellent HPCR diagnostic skills and enjoys working with people over the phone.

His cell phone is 763-228-7121.

If you don't believe me, read this thread from just last week and se what happened!!!

https://www.turbodieselregister.com...ement-can-of-worms.266941/page-2#post-2593359

 

[cerberusiam]

Who's 60 HP injectors were those?

 

[Lebo]

Thanks for the replies. I really appreciate it. I should have mentioned it in the first post but I have had a few codes recently not associated with the recent white smoke, rough idle event. I had a P0148 while towing heavy and accelerating up a small hill. I had a P1223 code not too long ago as well. These codes did not come on during this recent white smoke rough idle situation. Just wanted to mention it in case it helps create a better overall picture.

Ozymandias: No, he did not mention resetting the ECM back to stock. Would you recommend that be done when going back to a stock injector? Do they often do that when they change out injectors? Cars and trucks are not my strong point. I have always wished I knew more about them. I can do a lot of things but can't really afford the down time on the truck while I figure it out.

Crunch: That is a good summary. He did put my 60hp injectors back in to check again and it smoked bad and ran rough. So yes,

1) He took my 60hp injectors out,
2) Sent them to be tested,
3) In the meantime, he put back in his 2004 injectors.
4) When my injectors came back testing good, he then put my injectors back in. Smoke and rough idle returned.
5) Finally, he put his 2004s back in to let me drive it. Smoke and rough idle stopped.

Seems simple, except my (one year old) injectors tested good and that has complicated my decision. Hence, the appeal to you guys to see if any of you have experienced anything similar before I shell out the money for my second set of injectors in a year.

I was out of town during much of this and we had a little miscommunication hence the double swap. He's a good guy and IMO very passionate and knowledgeable about Dodge trucks but I know very little about the finer points of these trucks. For me it is like going to a doctor. A doctor could tell me anything and I'd be like, I guess that makes sense. He said he can't explain the test and hasn't seen this situation before and is sympathetic to my situation. He knows how much I have put into this truck over the last year and really wishes he could give me a more definitive answer to the problem.

I called a few other shops that do Bosch injector testing and they said the test are very accurate at fuel pressures below 12K. They also said they have not heard of an injector giving false positive under idle fuel pressures. One shop said once the pressure gets above 12k then yes, he has seen some that test good on the bench but bad in the truck. I only notice my truck smoking when cold and at idle. Usually the first start of the day or after sitting a while.

I called the place I purchased my 60hp over injectors. They have been fair but I can't expect them to warranty injectors that test good. They said it makes sense that a stock injector may not smoke given the difference in the the stock injectors and the 60hp overs. I wouldn't think it would be that much of a difference. Maybe it does. I’d hate to buy another set of 60hp overs and have the same problem. That is essentially what I am trying to avoid. A couple hundred bucks is one thing, but this will be my second set in a year plus trouble shooting costs. As you know that's a lot of cash. I thought I did my homework before buying the last set.



Seafish: Thanks for the advice. I'll call tomorrow.

I am pretty good at a lot of things but working on cars/trucks is not my strong point so again, I really appreciate the advice and opinions from your viewpoint and experiences.
Lebo

 

[RVTRKN]

Try to negotiate with the 60HP injector Vendor for a new set, then install the new set. If the smoking goes away, then contact the Vendor that sold you the set and try to get the warranty. Has the suspect injectors been installed in a test truck to see if the problem moves with the injectors?

On a side note: This is why I stay away, from going away from stock. Its nice to be able to increase HP/TQ, but the costs that go with it scares me. I do have EFILive on my truck, and so far its been great. But I took a nessecary step in trying to get rid of a glitch that developed in my ECM after a Dealer performed an ECM update in 2009. The cost of replacing the ECM was far greater than installing EFILive. BTW it didn't work, the glitch is still there, but the HP/TQ did increase and helped my 305HP C&C truck, to feel like my old 04.5 CTD.

 

[Lebo]

RVTRKN,
No. The suspected injectors have not been installed in a test truck. I am not sure he has a test tuck to do that with but that is an excellent idea. I may decide to go back to stock as well. My truck has always seemed a little doggie on the low end and off the line so I was hoping the 60hp overs would give me the truck I'v read about. Thanks

 

[cerberusiam]

Again, who is the source of these suspect injectors and are they new or reman? If you do not know that you are just playing Russian roulette with an expensive engine. Looks like you needed to do a LOT more research and due diligence before opting for the choice you did.

Injectors need to be tested all the way to 1600 Bar in 300 bar increments to see if they work correctly and balance at each check point. A single test a 12k psi is useless and if the mechanics and or shops are basing that as a definitive test they are sorely mistaken and utterly out of touch with reality. Yes, CR injectors incorrectly setup may pass a minimal test on a bench and fail miserably installed in the platform. Then, add in if they are reman you simply have over priced junk waiting to destroy and engine.

Again, WHO is the source of the injector and are they NEW or REMAN, those are the important questions. Nothing else around testing matters as there is not a shop in the US than can adequately test the performance across the actual pressure range. There are probably a 1/2 dozen high visibility vendors of 60 HP injectors and quite frankly none of them approach what stock or BBI will deliver. 60 HP sounds like either a BMS nozzle on Bosch body or a custom reman from another source and both have been less than stellar in their results.

The ECM calibration will make no difference in how the injectors perform, if it runs bad on one calibration it will on another as it is the mechanical portion that is bad. Note that the 2004 injectors that wer put in the engine quite possibly might have been the 143 spray pattern which will generally smoke less than the 124\126 used in the deep spray design, but, the fact that it runs correctly when suspect injectors are removed indicates those injectors are bad. They can argue all day long about test results but they DO NOT PERFORM correctly in the engine is all that matters. Just some mor ejunk injectors somebody thinks they know how to build, endemic problem with the CR injector market.

 

[RVTRKN]

I’m no expert, but the turbo should help in low end takeoff. That’s why twin turbos were introduced, to spool up quickly off the line.

 

[Lebo]

Cerberusiam, I apologize. I don’t know how I missed your reply asking who’s injectors I bought and if they are remanufactured. They are remanufactured injectors. I thought they all were these days. I called any place that advertised new and they said yes they are new but we had to do this or that to it to sell it as our own. That concerned me that they were not really new.
I’ll PM you the place I got them. Don’t want to put out a bad vibe about a business on a forum until until I know more. But I believe this business, which has treated me well in other areas, sources their injectors from a place in California. I’ll ask them specifically but with everyone’s help I feel more confident that it is indeed the injectors.
The injectors were tested all the way as far as I know. I’ll ask. Hopefully they wouldn’t run a partial test. No benefit for them and a lot of downside. A shop I called just mentioned that since my problem is at idle (below 12000 psi) in his experience he has never seen one test good on the bench below 12k and then be bad at idle on the truck. In other words mine test good on the bench at pressures that mimic idle. I don’t have any eye opening problems at higher fuel pressure above idle. Idle is a white smoke stack.

When your truck dies on a highway you do your best with the time you have and pull the trigger. The company came highly recommended from
my brother-in-law who has had diesels for years. I did not know they outsourced their injectors. Looks like I chose poorly. In my research I don’t recall seeing BBI so thank you for the recommendation. And Cerberusiam, thank you very much for responding. I was hoping to hear from you based on the comments you have posted for others.

Seems the consensus is I have bad injectors. Guess I’ll suck it up and try again. The 3 places I called that do injector testing all say they haven’t heard of this and that was my hang up. Got me wondering could it be something else. With all the input and my mechanics recommendation I’ll just buy a new set from a better source. If you guys have anything else to add send it over. You have all been a big big help. The subscription has already paid for itself in advice. I love this truck but, man, it be nice to have it perform they way I thought it would when I bought it.

 

[cerberusiam]

If you want a bit more performance and easier tuning you want to order a set of Bosch Marine injectors part # 0445120254. That gives you a 50 HP bump, 143 degree pattern that is better optimized for efficiency and a NEW production run Bosch injector not remans. Remans bad, remans with bigger nozzles badder!

You can get these NEW injectors forma variety of sources for about the same cost as a reman, no reason to settle for less.

 

[Lebo]

Ok. Thanks. I’lo spend the money on the new ones this time around. Hopefully last time for a while.

 

[Ozymandias]

I would always and ever first set the ECM to stock, we have seen to many problems over the years originated from tuners.

And it costs 0$ to do so.

 

[seafish]

Ok. Thanks. I’lo spend the money on the new ones this time around. Hopefully last time for a while.

If you are looking for new injectors with a little more pep, you should SERIOUSLYconsider using the BBI injectors, which are new Bosch injectors modified with proprietary procedures and tuned to proprietary specs by former Bosch engineers who left Bosch and started their own company in order to serivce the Cummins HPCR market.

EVERYBODY who uses them,( and even their wives!!! LOL) report quieter idling and more even, more powerful throttle response!!! Their stage .5 injector work well stock towing and their Stage 1 need a little tuning to shine.
I have a set though I have not yet had time to install them, I am very much looking forward to it

 

[TCDiesel]

Injectors tested good and this was the result. Damage done.

 

[EricViviano]

I'm having problems with 60 hp injectors myself with 100 miles on them in a brand new engine.

Curious as to where you got yours.

 

[Lebo]

Ozy: I'll ask him to do that and then see how it drives. I want to reset everything and start from scratch anyway.

Selfish: I know the mechanic I use now gets his injectors from overseas (Germany I think) and said he has only had one bad one in all his years. I am going to see if they are BBI's. I think he likes to keep his suppliers on the down low. I think those BBIs come from Austria but I am not sure. Either that or the Marine injectors. Either way I am going new this time.

TCDiesel, I hope I m not in that situation. Trucks run smooth with these 2004 injectors and I don't have any blow by that I can see. I had a leak down test and 2 cylinders (2 and 5) were on the high side approaching 20% but again no visual blow by. Compression numbers were 380-400 on all six. Seems low but I don't know what the compression should be. I think Cummins states just no lower than 350. I do have a bad gut feeling that this truck is not performing as well as it should but in 4 years haven't been able to put a finger on it. Runs smooth when it doesn't have injector issues, but seems doggy when starting out or pulling. Hopefully a new set of injectors will fix it up and be good enough. I am also waiting for a neighbor to get back from out of town. Their son has the same truck. Same year, same engine. Like to see if I can feel any difference. I mean mine will pull ok just it's just not living up to the idea I had in my ahead about these trucks after reading about them. But that will take a entirely different post.

EricV: sent you a message.

 

[cerberusiam]

I would always and ever first set the ECM to stock, we have seen to many problems over the years originated from tuners.

And it costs 0$ to do so.

That is a very dangerous route to suggest and the 2nd part is not true in almost all cases.

Rarely will you find a shop willing to use $10k of equipment and subscriptions to do something for free, it doesn't happen.

Rather than problems caused by not re-flashing many more problems are caused by failed flashes. If a dealer tries to flash the ECM the frist thing they will do is sell you a NEW ECM to the tune of $2500 because thy cannot fix a failed flash. An independent shop is in the same position if it fails, no way around a new ECM unless they have the correct programs and equipment. The only way to safely flash an ECM is bench flash with a custom harness, direct form Cummins if you want to research that. OBD flashes are and have been a problem for years and sometimes you do NOT get do overs. I have issues with all the big 3 flashing thru OBD ports and several required a new configuration from MAD's to get working again.

General rule is do NOT touch ECM until it is a last resort and KNOW intimately what is being done, along with batteries fully charged, battery charger installed, ambient temps above 70 F, etc. As the OP says the truck runs good with good injectors, leave the ECM alone and fix the real issues. Unles sit is throwing codes and diagnostics suggests a software problem never assume a re-flash is going to fix anything.

 

[cerberusiam]

I mean mine will pull ok just it's just not living up to the idea I had in my ahead about these trucks after reading about them. /

You list a 15SS TC in your signature, there is your difference. Your EFI live tunes are not cutting it if is a dog. Tuned correctly, even with stock injectors, it should try to throw you in the back seat if you really get after it.

As long as the compression is with 20% hi\low it is probably fine, 380-400 is perfectly acceptable.