2003 Injector issues

[JFulford]

I've got an 03 with 186K. I've got light smoke at idle at the 3-5 minute mark from startup. I had an oil analysis and everything looks good. I took it to Dodge for an injector Diagnosis--Im posting the results here.
Long story short: I'm changing All the injectors(done it on my 05 and on a an older 2002). Pensacola diesel has pretty good deals. Has anyone had any experience with them? Any other recommendations for under 275 a piece? I have no mods(other than gauges) and this is a light towing vehicle that has been babied.
Thanks
jeff
2003 Dodge 2500 Qcab Longbed 4wd.

 

[cerberusiam]

As to reman injectors, don't do it. A new injector or a good high quality reman can be had for about $360 per, the cost difference is not worth a destroyed engine.

Don't forge the feed tubes, you will need new ones at the age of the truck.

 

[Wayne M.]

I was just talking to the Cummins tech who was by for a warranty 6.7, and even he confided in me not to change a whole set, the crap shoot is too great even through his OEM sources
I was shocked to hear that from him.
If you haven’t already, get a secondary filter kit when you do this job.

 

[cerberusiam]

I was just talking to the Cummins tech who was by for a warranty 6.7, and even he confided in me not to change a whole set

Not change the whole set of injectors? OEM sources are not great quality? Do not know what kind of tech he was but it wasn't a Cummins trained one, that is the only thing for sure about that statement.

Load a live round into a 6 shooter and hand it to him asking how many times he wants to pull the trigger with it pointing at his foot. World of difference in the answer when they have some skin in the game. LOL!!!!

It is quite likely he was referring to reman injectors form his OEM source. ANY reman is a crap shoot, all you can do is minimize the potential damage by controlling the source. Otherwise, the correct response is ALWAYS replace with new injectors. Ask me how I know you want to replace as a set with new injectors when one goes bad and it is not an obvious anomaly!!!!

In the OP's case, the injectors he has are 7 revisions out of date, 17 years old, and a liability in that year of truck anyway. Only 2 good choices, new Bosch injectors or a set of BBI remans. Price is the same, about $360 per injector. A engine rebuild is $3-6k depending on how bad the implosion is, plus down time. No brainer there.

 

[Prairie Dog]

Change them all and only use new, bone stock parts.
Your truck is going to run smoother and more quiet than it ever has with the updated injectors.

 

[Tuesdak]

I've got an 03 with 186K. I've got light smoke at idle at the 3-5 minute mark from startup. I had an oil analysis and everything looks good. I took it to Dodge for an injector Diagnosis--Im posting the results here.
Long story short: I'm changing All the injectors(done it on my 05 and on a an older 2002). Pensacola diesel has pretty good turds that you can't pick up from a clean end. Has anyone had any experience with them? Any other recommendations for under 275 a piece? I have no mods(other than gauges) and this is a light towing vehicle that has been babied.
Thanks
jeff
2003 Dodge 2500 Qcab Longbed 4wd.

Fixed it for you. Read their reviews... they are awful and what warranty? They can't even get 1970's IDI diesel stuff right that, bluntly, people can build correctly in their own garage with some inexpensive special tools.

I have a used set of injectors in my garage that's a better deal. They were tested and I know what two in the set are bad. Same "As IS" warranty you will wind up with from them... And at least you will know what two are bad out of the box!

I put stage 1 BBi injectors in mine and had it custom tuned for no smoke. Loved the BBi's.

 

[Wayne M.]

The tech is a knowledgeable guy from Cummins Metropwer, and he’s quite into what he does. I remember reading right on here that sometimes you can get a dud injector. When he was explaining just that in his own way, the bulb went off about that past injector thread on here (possibly TC was involved). He led onto that being a real big issue in his world.
His philosophy is that often either they’re good or they’ve failed and it’d be obvious and replace only what’s needed.
He backed up his story about a M2 that torched a hole and he replaced that one piston and injector and sent the bus on its way.
A real experience in the life of a tech in the trenches.

 

[cerberusiam]

Yeah, it doesn't work that way. Whatever he is it isn't very good at personal company CYA. Regardless of his opinions that are in direct conflict with Cummins procedures, it doesn't apply to the OP for the stated reasons.

According to TC the injectors, even remans, rarely if ever fail so replacement procedures are not a big discussion point. He will eventually learn when one of those single injector replacements comes back with a blown motor and the client starts asking hard questions. Gonna cost somebody something, the only question is what.

We are still laughing at "His philosophy is that often either they’re good or they’ve failed and it’d be obvious and replace only what’s needed".

 

[Wayne M.]

We are still laughing.

Want some windex for that mirror?

 

[cerberusiam]

Awww, c'cmon! You gotta recognize the humor and irony in that statement.

 

[Wayne M.]

I hope the OP does what’s right for him and I hope he keeps us informed.
Meanwhile, we have a truck that’s been out of service for a while due to litigation, and now it won’t start, barely runs and smokes white. We’ve determined that the NYC mandated biodiesel has separated and gone bad. The prelim diagnosis was injectors.
Things aren’t always what they seem.

 

[cerberusiam]

How do you know it is NOT injectors? Have they been pulled, disassembled, and examined?

Given how susceptible CR injectors are to damage from contamination and\or bad fuel, do you really believe the injectors are not compromised to some degree?

Put it another way, would you install those injectors in YOUR personal vehicle with any level of confidence? Would you sell these to a customer and send him down the road with admonishment that "they don't look bad, no need to replace them"?

THAT is the philosophy you are espousing, if we cannot see anything obvious all is good. Already had to rebuild one because it all looked good and passed the minimal tests that are available. That was until 3/4 of the way thru a 6k loaded trip when it obviously wasn't. End result was and engine rebuild due to blown HG, 2nd time, a scuffed cylinder from the ring ends touching, and several rod bearings hammered close to failure. The next event was going to be a rod out the side of the block using your philosophy. Oh definitely, things aren't always what they seem.

BTW, the above is the direct result of 1) NOT replacing injectors as a set 2) NOT using new injectors. A philosophy is great for defining a human condition, it doesn't work so well with a Cummins condition.

 

[Tuesdak]

I hope the OP does what’s right for him and I hope he keeps us informed.
Meanwhile, we have a truck that’s been out of service for a while due to litigation, and now it won’t start, barely runs and smokes white. We’ve determined that the NYC mandated biodiesel has separated and gone bad. The prelim diagnosis was injectors.
Things aren’t always what they seem.
View attachment 117957

What % Bio they running? As it's mandated all you can do is "deal with it." This is generally my intent is serving as a bad example after using B99 and ways to better deal with the changed bio diesel fuel blends we have mandated to use today.

That's not biodiesel or fuel anymore... FWIW you can't store Biodiesel very long. It's like the modern Ethanol laced gasoline where ~6 months turns the carb into plugged up corroded junk. Hotter weather like being out of the fridge encourages faster growth.

This was diagnosed with bad injectors, now, or long ago? Sat around for another "reason" and then fired up now and "must be bad injectors...". Don't disagree the injectors may be shot now, but, the "used to be fuel" won't burn well and could immediately trash a new injector set.

I have replaced the entire fuel system from and including the fuel tank, fuel lines, lift pump, injection pump, injectors, and filters over bad Biodiesel fuel. It adsorbs water and suspends water in the fuel that allows bugs to grow in the fuel. Old time diesel is known to grow bugs at the water/fuel layer in the bottom of the tank only. ULSD and Bio blends hold more water and thus allow bugs to grow in the fuel. This is new info and the boating forums appear to be the early ones to suffer from Bio. For fun you can take a quart glass container: Add 1/4 of that fuel and 1/4 of #2 diesel. See if it drops out a bunch of water when mixed.

The bug growth and extra water becomes corrosive ruining anything metal. Ate the tank lining out of the 1990's era tanks, corroded the IP innards, scored up the plungers on the lift pump, and trashed the IP with "no core credit" corrosion everywhere. Also the slime layer from the growth is a PIA to clean off. In my case gasoline is an effective bug killer.

I suggest you send a fuel sample out for testing. You would be looking for bug growth, water content, and other "bio"diesel specs. Maybe they left too much meth or unprocessed oil in it. You need to know what kinds of bugs are growing so you can select the proper pesticide to use in the fuel. They have any contracts with "Fuel Polishing" companies to clean up the Bio mess when it happens?

As far as this rig: it's possible to use a special diesel fuel system cleaner that you run the engine from a 5 gal pail. For example GM makes one part number. It is like drygas and other cleaners that may "save" the injection system. If it sat too long it may clean it out before you replace the expensive parts.

Speaking of litigation... What's the risk of a wreck if the engine quits from fuel system failure in the future? It may be cheaper to outright replace the entire fuel system including tanks just to be sure it won't have lingering problems (fuel system failure, engine failure, wrecks from loss of power) from this bad fuel.

In depth article I wrote about this:

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/threads/ulsd-and-biodiesel-exposed.248698/

 

[Wayne M.]

Update, the old fuel and filters gone, fresh in, and she’s fine. Injector DTCs are gone.

 

[JFulford]

Thanks for the info! Found a new set of Bosch injectors for around 333 each. Bought a set of cummins connection tubes for 39.00, new in box. Still working on it BUT making progress. Any suggestions for torquing #6 tube nut/line? Just cant seem to make things work.
jeff

 

[Wayne M.]

Any core charge on top of the $333?

 

[JFulford]

Yes, 50 each.
jeff

 

[JFulford]

Any core charge on top of the $333?

Yes. $50 each.
jef

 

[Ozymandias]

Weird, usually no core charge for NEW injectors.

 

[cerberusiam]

Normal to have as $50 cor eon injectors, Bosch wants them back in the pipeline as remans. They cannot keep enough good ones for rebuild.