Upgrade to newer SCR/DEF emissions for a Gen 3 LNT (non-DEF) engine?

[MichaelOverfield]

Well, the days of delete are becoming more difficult.. we can thank the "rolling coal" crowd in some ways for that. The early 6.7 with the LNT / Bluetec system gets horrible MPG and has serious fuel dilution of the oil issues.. and it's a system that seriously limits the options for the operating pattern of the truck to keep it reliable. All that said, the newer SCR based systems have proven to be more reliable and are able to obtain much better MPG than the early SCR systems. While the "fix" had often been to do a delete, that might no longer be a viable option if faced with random roadside compliance inspections and serious hassles, fines, etc. I'm pretty sure any IMPROVEMENT on the original emissions system to make it better than stock is not going to get you in trouble with the EPA, realizing it won't be cheap, but cheaper than a new truck, for sure, and cheaper than a fine if caught with a delete. Has anyone heard of a way to install the newer, 2013 and newer SCR system on a 07.5 to 12 truck?

 

[EDankievitch]

I asked this very same question to the Engineers at Cummins back in 2013 at the open house. While an interesting proposal their main concern is new product not retrofitting old product. I owned a 2012 that was loading the lube with fuel like there was no tomorrow back then. I really didn’t want a new truck. I was willing to pay to update it. Maybe if we all push hard enough it might happen this time around . But I really doubt it. EPA testing is the biggest hurdle.

 

[MichaelOverfield]

I asked this very same question to the Engineers at Cummins back in 2013 at the open house. While an interesting proposal their main concern is new product not retrofitting old product. I owned a 2012 that was loading the lube with fuel like there was no tomorrow back then. I really didn’t want a new truck. I was willing to pay to update it. Maybe if we all push hard enough it might happen this time around . But I really doubt it. EPA testing is the biggest hurdle.

If it is the SAME system tested on the newer trucks, that have basically the same engine... seems the testing would have been done already on the newer trucks.. one would think.. besides the newer system has to meet more stringent standards than the LNT system, and our older trucks are only held to the standards in the Model Year they were produced, so we are not held to the 2013 and newer limits, yet the system ought to attain them if running the same components and programming... With the availability of the inexpensive option to delete, with almost no risk of consequences... there was no market for such a solution.. but now the enforcement is ramping up, the market could be there. I would expect the cost to be substantial... clearly more than the cost to delete, but the equation might have changed a bit. Looking at the cost of the new trucks however, the cost to upgrade emissions might still make sense over buying a new truck.

 

[AH64ID]

Based on the cost of a SCR/DPF system I am not sure it's worth updating an older truck.

The full ECM, wiring harness, and exhaust would be needed. Even used these aren't cheap. At least the new ECM would offer an increase in power, but are the injectors/pistons the same? I think so, but not certain.

A DEF tank will have to be sourced, and a mount created as the frames are different.

There wouldn't be a DEF gauge in the truck, but that's not a huge deal.

Also, I'm not sure if the ECM will interface with the instrument cluster. It's not likely and that means an instrument cluster.

But if you get it all to work then passing emissions should be very easy as it's all newer equipment.


Realistically it would be putting 1/3 of the vehicles value back into it and not increasing the value at all. I'd sell it and get a newer truck.

 

[MichaelOverfield]

I paid about 38K for my truck brand new in late 2009.. that won't even get you a 1/2 ton Gas engine truck today.. not even close. I totally get that it would be complicated and likely expensive to make it work, the SCR in place of the LNT, the DPF should be re-usable. Any DEF tank (or even make one, they are crazy expensive for a piece of plastic, and there is ample room under the truck to find a home for one). The electronics are likely to be the most difficult, and certainly if you replace the ECU for one that can drive the newer system, that might mean other problems arise, totally get that. Here is the deal, for me to go with a newer truck, best case.. I'm out something like $50K, assuming I get top dollar for the current truck, and most likely much, much more than that.. If this upgrade cost $10K to complete, it would still be far cheaper, and my low miles truck is nowhere near end of life.. at the rate I drive it I could get 15 year or more out of it. Now, if newer trucks were not so insanely expensive, I would certainly look at that option to avoid the hassle, but that is not where things are, I paid less for my first house than the average new HD Diesel pick-up costs. Oh how I so wish my 2005 Truck did not get totaled by a reckless driver.. it didn't have any of these emissions problems!

 

[AH64ID]

I paid about 38K for my truck brand new in late 2009.. that won't even get you a 1/2 ton Gas engine truck today.. not even close. I totally get that it would be complicated and likely expensive to make it work, the SCR in place of the LNT, the DPF should be re-usable. Any DEF tank (or even make one, they are crazy expensive for a piece of plastic, and there is ample room under the truck to find a home for one). The electronics are likely to be the most difficult, and certainly if you replace the ECU for one that can drive the newer system, that might mean other problems arise, totally get that. Here is the deal, for me to go with a newer truck, best case.. I'm out something like $50K, assuming I get top dollar for the current truck, and most likely much, much more than that.. If this upgrade cost $10K to complete, it would still be far cheaper, and my low miles truck is nowhere near end of life.. at the rate I drive it I could get 15 year or more out of it. Now, if newer trucks were not so insanely expensive, I would certainly look at that option to avoid the hassle, but that is not where things are, I paid less for my first house than the average new HD Diesel pick-up costs. Oh how I so wish my 2005 Truck did not get totaled by a reckless driver.. it didn't have any of these emissions problems!

Inflation happens, and trucks are more expensive. Luckily most the population get's inflation on pay as well, but not everyone.

It did not cost me anywhere near $50K out of pocket to upgrade from a 05 to a 18. I did have good luck selling the the 05 and that covered just under 1/2 of the cost of the new truck last year. I also bought a lightly used 18 and saved a bunch of money there. Not too bad considering I got a Laramie.

I am not sure the DPF would be re-usable, but it certainly could be.

The other issue with putting 10-15K (I think you'd be closer to 15K off the top of my head) is that if it gets totaled the next day the 15K is likely gone, whereas the value of a new truck is easier to recover.

 

[MichaelOverfield]

Inflation happens, and trucks are more expensive. Luckily most the population get's inflation on pay as well, but not everyone.

It did not cost me anywhere near $50K out of pocket to upgrade from a 05 to a 18. I did have good luck selling the the 05 and that covered just under 1/2 of the cost of the new truck last year. I also bought a lightly used 18 and saved a bunch of money there. Not too bad considering I got a Laramie.

I am not sure the DPF would be re-usable, but it certainly could be.

The other issue with putting 10-15K (I think you'd be closer to 15K off the top of my head) is that if it gets totaled the next day the 15K is likely gone, whereas the value of a new truck is easier to recover.

All good points.. certainly something to consider. The problem I'd have is finding a used truck that is what I really want, and the manuals are a thing of the past, and have been rare for a long time now.. Granted the autos are now much better than the were, but I still like to grind my own gears and exercise my left foot.

 

[MichaelOverfield]

Oh, it's more than just inflation on the price of the large vehicles, it's CAFE standards... the smaller cars are actually cheaper today, when adjusting for inflation.. I can buy a new car similar to my 1996 Saturn for about the SAME cost as in 1996, which means the new small cars are cheaper.. but that is because the CAFE standards have the OEMs pushing out the high MPG cars, at a loss in some cases (FCA CEO once said they lose money on some models, but do it so they can sell the profitable models, which don't help the average OEM MPG levels..). This has caused the price of the new trucks and large vehicles to well out pace inflation over the past 10 years.

 

[AH64ID]

All good points.. certainly something to consider. The problem I'd have is finding a used truck that is what I really want, and the manuals are a thing of the past, and have been rare for a long time now.. Granted the autos are now much better than the were, but I still like to grind my own gears and exercise my left foot.

Find and AISIN and you won't miss your G56.

I do get to row my own gears in my TJ commuter thou, so I fully understand. I want to own at least one manual rig.

I was very nervous about going to an Auto but I am happy with the switch. I wish the mileage was a little better on forest service roads with an unlocked torque converter but that's really my only gripe. It pulls very well!

 

[Ozymandias]

The Emissions is a big part of the price increase over the last 10 years.
Many very expensive parts were added within this period.

 

[MarkEagleUSA]

but that is because the CAFE standards have the OEMs pushing out the high MPG cars, at a loss in some cases (FCA CEO once said they lose money on some models, but do it so they can sell the profitable models, which don't help the average OEM MPG levels..). This has caused the price of the new trucks and large vehicles to well out pace inflation over the past 10 years.

Truck prices have risen because that's what people want. It's the old law of supply and demand. It has nothing to do with CAFE standards or corporate MPG...

 

[MichaelOverfield]

From way back in 1991, and the trend has continued
"Bizarre Situation
American auto manufacturers are in the bizarre situation of having to protect themselves against the wishes of their own customers. If a manufacturer allows its customers to buy too many efficient but large cars, the manufacturer will end up in violation of the CAFE standards. To prevent this, auto makers change the "mix" of cars they sell by increasing the prices of larger cars and lowering the prices of smaller cars. (For evidence that automakers actually do this, see, e.g., Competitive Enterprise Institute v. NHTSA, 901 F.2d 107, 124-25 (D.C. Cir. 1990) (Ginsburg, J., concurring).) In effect, CAFE acts as a tax on larger, safer cars which is used to subsidize sales of smaller, higher-mpg, but less safe cars." https://www.heritage.org/environment/report/auto-cafe-standards-unsafe-and-unwise-any-level

 

[MichaelOverfield]

Here it is... They sell cars at a LOSS to meet standards, so how do they make up that loss? Yep, the price of your truck goes WAY UP... it's not rocket science. https://www.foxbusiness.com/features/fiat-chrysler-ceo-dont-buy-fiats-electric-car

 

[MichaelOverfield]

Truck prices have risen because that's what people want. It's the old law of supply and demand. It has nothing to do with CAFE standards or corporate MPG...

Oh, in addition to the last 2 posts.. this one is rich, when we buy from FCA for these trucks, part of the cost is going to PAY for people to have have a Tesla.. can't make this up.. so YES, the price IS GOING UP due to CAFE standards and other government mandates.. where do you think FCA gets the cash to PAY TESLA? https://krcrtv.com/features/auto-ma...la-hundreds-of-millions-for-emissions-credits

 

[MichaelOverfield]

This one gets specific in how the CAFE standards drive the manufacture to make investments, which are pulled from profits from new vehicle sales... https://news.pickuptrucks.com/2014/05/how-does-fiat-chryslers-cafe-standings-affect-consumers.html

 

[MichaelOverfield]

http://www.trucktrend.com/features/1811-the-drivers-seat-trucks-are-too-expensive/

 

[Jihn]

Truck prices have risen because that's what people want. It's the old law of supply and demand. It has nothing to do with CAFE standards or corporate MPG...

You hit the nail right on the head..."supply & demand" but it does have everything to do with "cafe standards" in order for OEM's to sell us the trucks they HAVE TO sell a pile of high mileage small cars, and some at a loss, they actually have to make a demand for the small cars so they can sell them, and they do by keeping the price as low as possible, and to make up for the low profits the trucks(&other high end vehicles) get a much larger profit margin to recover the money spent on making the demand for the small cars.
So it is supply & demand but it's the new law of it.

Jihn

 

[MarkEagleUSA]

While prices may be affected by CAFE and fleet MPG ratings, I can think of no one who goes into a new vehicle purchase with those things in mind. Most people want what they want and probably could care less about these things. Trucks and SUV's are where all the profit is for any automaker that sells them. It's a demand driven market regardless of what the economists say. If people stopped buying $60-80k trucks how long do you think those prices would last?

 

[MarkEagleUSA]

in order for OEM's to sell us the trucks they HAVE TO sell a pile of high mileage small cars, and some at a loss, they actually have to make a demand for the small cars so they can sell them, and they do by keeping the price as low as possible

Many of those "loss leaders" go to rental fleets and lessee's. People simply aren't buying bare bones vehicles these days, and won't until the next economic bust or gas crisis.

I'll concede that the profit margins on truck are higher, but that has as much to do with demand as anything else. If they weren't selling in droves the prices (and margins) would surely fall.

 

[Jihn]

I'll concede that the profit margins on truck are higher, but that has as much to do with demand as anything else. If they weren't selling in droves the prices (and margins) would surely fall.

Yes your right, but the manufactures will cut the supply and again create a (false) demand, they need the money!!!. Doesn't matter which way you slice it the manufactures are basically in control of their own supply & demand(to a point).
No argument here, it is supply & demand.

Jihn