'04 surging

[DaveH77]

My 04 2500 4x4, stock, AT, with 234,000 miles surges badly on easy level ground and slight downhill. Power is just fine, solid, and steady, idling, uphill, or accelerating, or towing loads. Better when cool or cold, worse on warm afternoons. Sometimes I wonder if its gonna get me home.
DieselKleen seems to make it go away and run just fine. Lucas does the same. If I try to run a tank of fuel without either, it starts surging again after about a half a tank. Dump in some injector cleaner and it is better immediately.
Sticking my foot in it wfo thru the gears stops the surging for a short time, a few minutes/miles.

Last oil change the shop was supposed to do the fuel filter too but after very bad experience with them on another vehicle, I wonder if they did anything they said. The surging was no different before or after that 'service'.

What exactly does a "tune up" consist of on these engines?
The dealer said oil change, fuel filter change, and something about cleaning the top rail. ??

I have no idea the previous history, service records, or anything about it before 220,000 when I bought it.
The cruise control used to quit and dealer had a heck of a time fixing it but they finally got it to work 99.9% of the time. They replaced the pedal position sensor unit on the engine, the vacuum pump and the vac motor. Very rarely it still will kick off cruise but then works again after the truck is shut off and restarted.
It does not seem to have any relevance to the surging.

It's my first diesel except for John Deere tractors, so not familiar with all the terms and abbreviations I read here.

Any ideas, suggestions on the surging are quite welcome, to say the least.

What can I do myself (competent gasser and tractor mechanic) besides paying the dealer? (tight budget)

Many thanks to all the contributors here, you all gave me the courage to do water pump, and then ball joints, hubs, u-joints myself.
And yes, you can definitely grease the wheel bearings through the abs sensor hole. ;-) just don't get carried away with it.

Thanks a bunch for this gold mine of Cummins Ram knowledge.
Dave

 

[cerberusiam]

About the only thing you can do for a tune up on a CR engine is change the injectors. The rest is just maintaining filters, air and fuel. The surging and trying to die is probably the FCA (fuel control actuator) on the high pressure fuel pump. since running additives makes it run better that would be the place to start, 2 bolts and an electrical connection.

The other key thing you need to do is an additive regimen. A mix of a cleaner and lube in every tank and you will see the results in keeping things smoother. ULSD has issues with retaining water and the CR system forces asphaltenes form the fuel and our diesel is really crappy anyway. A mix of Power Service and 2 stroke oil ahs worked very well on every truck I have owned.

 

[DaveH77]

Thank you sir. I see FCAs from $29 (China) to $49 ?, to $143 Bosch, to over $300 Bosch. At $143 does seem like a good start but from all the comments about fixing rough idle problems I'm not sure. Seems to idle just fine in the driveway so I wouldn't think of the FCA but when it does it on the road, it is worst at very light throttle, just 'idling' down the road.
Will run cleaner/lube every tank as I pretty much have to now. Next fuel filter will be a Baldwin. Looking at the dual Cat setup that bolts to the seat bolts sometime soon.
Looked at injectors. Yikes! WTH makes these so darned expensive?

ULSD ??

Thanks again, Dave

 

[MarkEkberg]

My surging started, then it quit starting cold, then quit starting anytime. Took about 20K miles. Changed the injectors and surging went away.

 

[cerberusiam]

Here is what you want https://www.genosgarage.com/product/actuator-4932457/fuel-system-accessories-replacement-parts. Genos Gargae is the TDR so support for them is support for TDR.

The FCA is a PWM solenoid so it is constantly adjusting to meet rail pressure demands, when they wear out and\or get sticky driving situations is where most of the problems appear.

The most effective mod for filter is a CAT 1R between the OE filter housing and the CP-3. Glacier Diesel has the kits to install them. Depending on where your lift pump is the dual CAT may be a no go. The stock LP on your truck is on the back of the filter housing and it will not like sucking thru filters. If it has been retrofitted with an in-tank pump then the extreme duty Dodge filter is a good choice or just a FleetGuard base that will take a good WS filter for extra protection. You can still run the stock in-tank pump with good results buy using that filtration paradigm. Other choice is an external pump like FASS or AirDog.

CR injectors are the heart of engine operation, they are a complex refined unit with very tight tolerances. Quality costs $$.

ULSD is Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel, what is now mandated for all road driven vehicles and most off road now due to the Tier 4 emissions restrictions.

 

[DaveH77]

Thanks again! Got the FCA from Geno's in 2 days with extra goodies in the bag. Geno's definitely first place to check from here out.

Easy to put in. Throttle response off idle much better and generally running stronger. Can't tell if it stopped the surging because this tank of fuel has additive. Will have to run a tank or two of straight fuel to see how she runs without injector cleaner involved. Sure hoping it is cured. Then will definitely be running cleaner & lube every tank along with improved filtration to get max life from the injectors.

Looking at my engine tag it is 325HP, made in May 2004, with 4" exhaust including what looks to be a cat up near the engine. I presume this makes it a 2004.5, right?

Now trying to pin down the location of the LP to be able to choose which route to take for better filtration (on a limited budget).
There doesn't appear to be a pump unit attached to the rear of the filter housing. Must be in the tank?

We tried to listen for the LP when first turning on the key. Found a different unit clicking away loudly right behind the passenger side battery. Black plastic cylinder appears to have vacuum lines, and clicks continuously, even after start up, just never noticed it before with the Cummins noise. What the heck is that thing anyway, my vacuum pump?

I have no local Cummins experts to trust so I get to confess my ignorance here so you guys get to chuckle with these diesel newbie questions ;-)

I do know one thing that would help newbies immensely, forgive me if I missed it somewhere: a glossary of all the abbreviations you all use so often. To someone not familiar with them, some posts seem to be written in code. LOL
A sticky thread with all those abbreviations explained would be a valuable addition and reduce redundant questions.

I want/need to change the fuel filter but first need to see how the new FCA works on the surging with no other change involved. I will report back on the FCA and the surging issue.

Thanks for the help.

 

[cerberusiam]

This will help, https://www.turbodieselregister.com/threads/3rd-generation-5-9l-engine-and-transmission-faqs.251966/.

Easy way to check is take off the fuel tank cap and listen when the key is turned to the run position. You should hear about 5 seconds of a buzz from the tank. Same for the back of the filter housing, something will buzz when key is turned to run.

Yes, that plastic thing behind the passenger battery is the vacuum pump and if it runs constantly there is a problem. Aside form the pimps just going bad, the vacuum lines will rot after a time and break or run thru. The line sonly run to one spot, the cruise control unit. There is a reservoir in the firewall that the line will T off to. Have to back check all the lines to look for problems. Isolate the vacuum line at the pimp and should pump then hold for a bit.

 

[DaveH77]

Ok, LP is definitely in the tank, but it does not stop buzzing after a few seconds like a normal electric push pump would do after it pressures up. It just keeps buzzing.

I thought the LP would just pressure up and hold until needed. They don't recirculate excess right? Why would it continue to run?
It seems to me that it did run a short bit and stop like expected before I changed the FCA.... ?? Does that make any sense?
I'd hate to put the old FCA back in just to see if I remember it right. LOL

There is also a fine little clicking from the intake manifold, seems to be right in the base of the cast incoming air duct where it bolts to the manifold. Do I recall a pic of the grid heater plates right there? Grid heater dash light goes out like normal but the fine clicking continues.
Both tank buzzing and manifold clicking continue until start up, then can't hear either.

Curious, Does the main Bosch pump recirculate excess off the rail back to the tank? I thought that is how many diesels work.

Some good news, the vacuum pump does finally stop after 2-4 minutes. Holds ok, doesn't start right back up after shut down/key on test, so I guess I'm ok there.

Thanks for all the links, quite helpful.
FYI: the link to the "320+ page Turbo Diesel Buyers Guide" does not work

 

[Regcabguy]

A quart of Supertek synthetic worked wonders for my sticking FCA.
Regardless I purchased an FCA from Genos.

 

[cerberusiam]

LP should run for 5 seconds then shut off until the engine starts. However, since you have a retrofit LP there is no telling how it is wired and if the ECM circuit is dead. LP was run off an ECM circuit directly and they would eventually burn it out and require and ECM. Fix was to bypass that and wire a relay to the ignition circuit so it ran all the time whine the key was on. Changing the FCA will NOT effect LP operation. Something else to investigate.

The clicking under the hood with the key on and engine not running is injectors 1 and 6 cycling to bleed any air and pressure out of the rail preparatory to engine start. The CR systems self prime and self bleed on startup if you let them.

The CP-3, fuel rail PR valve, and injector all return fuel constantly to the tank when engine is running. Both the CP-3 and injectors are lubed\cooled by fuel so there is constant rotation of fuel. That is what cooks the asphaltenes out of the fuel, the ocnstant heating and cooling of the fuel. On the other it is also constantly polishing the fuel thru the filters. Under normal conditions about 75% of the fuel sent to the CP-3 is used for cooling and lube the returned to the tank.

 

[DaveH77]

Sincere thanks cerb, In spite of my amateur questions, I am a very technically inclined guy and thrive on exactly that kind of explanation. I really like to understand how things actually work, or are supposed to work, as the case may be. I started rebuilding engines before I had a drivers license, just classic muscle, never diesels.

I presume my LP must be running off the ignition circuit, on with the key.

You said: If it has been retrofitted with an in-tank pump then the extreme duty Dodge filter is a good choice or just a FleetGuard base that will take a good WS filter for extra protection. You can still run the stock in-tank pump with good results buy using that filtration paradigm.

Since we know we are pushing from the tank, what is my most cost effective choice for improved filtration? Any specific part numbers or direction for the above?

Other posts make it sound like it is best to have a good water separator first, then a good pre-filter before the small micron in the stock location.
It makes physical sense to me that pulling the water out first makes it possible to have better cleaning in the following filter instead of trying to do both in one can.
Looking for the best way to do that without breaking a small piggy bank, lol.

Also what is best to run in the stock can? Fleetguard FS19856 or the Baldwin I hear about? (Baldwin part #?)

Thanks again

 

[Wayne M.]

Hi Dave, there is one other thing that I consider part of a Diesel tune up, and that is checking valve lash. I know it has not much to do with your issue, but if it's never been done, it's twice overdue. Some guys like to run a return fuel volume test also. This checks the efficiency of the injectors, to see if their spray volume is correct.
Onto the topic.
About 2 years ago, I had a surging issue as well. I chased the fuel system, checking this and that, and changing the FCA, but it was my poor air conditioner performance that led me to my problem.
When summer hit, I realized that my fan didn't clutch as it did, and sure enough, my high side AC pressures were high. I checked for DTC's and I did have one, but it wasn't for the fan.
Since the fan is a pattern failure, and seemed proper that it wasn't working right, not cooling the condenser, (I never ran high coolant temps) I decided to change it. Upon changing it, I found that the harness between the connector, and the conduit running up to the fan hub had worn through one of the wires! I was basically intermittently shorting out the electrical system. After the new fan was in, my AC was chilling, I had fan roar, and the surge I couldn't solve went away.
Oh, the DTC? That was for the APPS (accel pedal position sensor), and that went away too.

 

[cerberusiam]

Easiest thing to do is add a high flow 3um between the stock filter and the CP-3, there are kits to do that or you can build your own. Later you could add more WS at the tank for safety.

Either the FL or Baldwin in the stock canister is a good choice, they both have excellent WS capabilities and 5-7 um filtration. Couple wit the 3 um downstream that gives solid protection for minimal investment. If you are careful where you buy fuel that works quite well.

 

[DaveH77]

Hi Dave, there is one other thing that I consider part of a Diesel tune up, and that is checking valve lash. I know it has not much to do with your issue, but if it's never been done, it's twice overdue. Some guys like to run a return fuel volume test also. This checks the efficiency of the injectors, to see if their spray volume is correct.
Onto the topic.
About 2 years ago, I had a surging issue as well. I chased the fuel system, checking this and that, and changing the FCA, but it was my poor air conditioner performance that led me to my problem.
When summer hit, I realized that my fan didn't clutch as it did, and sure enough, my high side AC pressures were high. I checked for DTC's and I did have one, but it wasn't for the fan.
Since the fan is a pattern failure, and seemed proper that it wasn't working right, not cooling the condenser, (I never ran high coolant temps) I decided to change it. Upon changing it, I found that the harness between the connector, and the conduit running up to the fan hub had worn through one of the wires! I was basically intermittently shorting out the electrical system. After the new fan was in, my AC was chilling, I had fan roar, and the surge I couldn't solve went away.
Oh, the DTC? That was for the APPS (accel pedal position sensor), and that went away too.

Wayne,
It's the pits having 230,000+ miles and no clue about previous work done.
Valve lash should be pretty high up on the to do list. Haven't done any of that since my muscle car motor days, many moons ago.
Now that summer heat is arriving, maybe the fan is also an issue. Having heard several comments here about fan roar, I must say what roar?
My AC is cold down the road but not as cold idling around town or stopped. Suspect fan clutch is gone.
Thanks for the tips.
Dave

 

[DaveH77]

Surging & FCA update
I will say that the FCA from Geno's was easy to change and the surging issue was gone completely. Great price and super quick service from Geno's!
The surging was gone for a month until the warmer weather arrived, now back to surging a bit now and then. Kinda discouraging because I thought it was fixed.

I guess the next thing is a new fan clutch, since I never hear any 'fan roar'. Is there any simple test for those fan clutches?
Will definitely check the wiring harness to the fan as I have seen more than one post where there are issues with that wiring getting worn or grounded out, etc.

"Easiest thing to do is add a high flow 3um between the stock filter and the CP-3, there are kits to do that or you can build your own."
Any direction to DYI or part numbers for the kit to do this 3um filter set up?

Now that I have new FCA and the surging returned anyway, still looking for the cause. Odd it ran just great for a month after the new FCA with no surging at all, but now starting to surge again, just not as bad. yet?

I am going to change the fuel filter to a Baldwin and check for water, maybe it was just a bad tank of fuel.

Thanks again for all who contribute here, Dave

 

[cerberusiam]

Go to Glacier Diesel and look at the add-on filtration kits he has there.

 

[Wayne M.]

Wayne,
It's the pits having 230,000+ miles and no clue about previous work done.
Valve lash should be pretty high up on the to do list. Haven't done any of that since my muscle car motor days, many moons ago.
Now that summer heat is arriving, maybe the fan is also an issue. Having heard several comments here about fan roar, I must say what roar?
My AC is cold down the road but not as cold idling around town or stopped. Suspect fan clutch is gone.
Thanks for the tips.
Dave

Good that you know lash. The difference between doing it on a 350/327 and a real Diesel like your Cummins, is technique. You'll need a barring tool (gear) and I think there are some free directions here if you dig for them. Please don't bump the starter Motor to do it.
One of the things that happens to the visitronic fan is that it loses its ability to clutch. The way I use to know it's working is, on a real hot day, you're waiting for your wife to come out of the pharmacy, and you're idling hot with the ac on. At this time, the clutch should be at max apply, so with the cab kinda quiet and upon pulling away, you SHOULD hear some fan noise- or roar. This will go away quickly, as the clutch is primarily meant to keep fan speed up when the engine is idling and coolant temps and AC pressures rise.
There are scan tool fan tests you can do, but that's one convenient way to tell.
Some cars don't cool the cabin parked as well as on the highway. The 3 gen Ram is one of them. A complaint since they were new.