100hp box

[RSnaith]

Re: Got it!

Originally posted by Marco

Straight from the manfacturer, Marco

I thought you had some first hand knowledge. Instead it's clear that you simply report what others have told you.

Well, Marco, we haven't had a scan tool hooked up, but the box in question, under part throttle conditions, and even at idle, made our test truck rattle like mad. Timing was advanced much too heavily, and we simply took the box off and returned it.



As far as reporting what others have told me, you'll have to pardon me if I take offense to this. We do our own testing, and our own research at Wildcat. In many cases, we do NOT release our results on a general forum, as it opens up a whole legal can of worms that we really don't care to get into. As far as this particular set of circumstances, I'd say that talking to the people who have DEVELOPED the actual programs in use would tend to give us as an accurate picture of what the box may likely do. Using a scan tool to develop maps of timing/fueling commands would require ensuring that you were testing the truck under every single possible circumstance, and quite frankly, its a waste of time when the engineers are more than happy to tell you what they are using for ranges and how the box will respond to a set of circumstances.

 

[nickleinonen]

i'm not sure what the timing is on the b cummins, but when i was in school tuning up a deutz v6 idi diesel engine, it's base was factory spec'd to 21° advance... . , and that will advance even more under rpm...

 

[jjdiesel]

RSnaith, that was a nice, polite rebuttal. That's the way all disagreements on the forum ought to be handled... . gentlemanly!

 

[krabman]

yep, what jjdiesel said.

 

[Elite1]

Marco, We (my wife and I) had a great time in Italy... Great people, food, drink, sites, & beautiful women. Flew in to Milano, drove to Bologna, visited a friend there, and stayed in Pianoro. Then drove to Firenze stayed in a villa in the hills above town, and attended a wedding there, of friends. That was the main reason we went. A Cardinal from the the Vatican officiated the ceremony. We then drove to Rome and the Vatican. Saw the Pope and many sites too numerous to mention. Drove back to Florence, then to Venice spent a few days there, very nice. Then drove back to Milan passed through your city of Verona.

The people drive very fast on the highways, at times I would be driving over 100 mph (american) and I would get passed by some mercedes or BMW like I was standing still!

 

[Marco]

Sorry

As far as reporting what others have told me, you'll have to pardon me if I take offense to this



Mr. RSnaith, I beg your pardon I did not want to offend you.



That said, let me get to my point of view.



If you read back through the MSG's you've posted in this thread you will surely agree that your information is not correct.



A dealer and or MFR of a product(s) should make sure that the information released IS correct.



Each product will advance the timing a fair bit (up to 17 degrees) under part throttle conditions, in order to optimize burn and fuel economy.



Would I have been average Joe reading the TDR that line would have lead me to believe that it takes 17° of timing advance to gain decent mileage and power.



Only AFTER my provocation to you, the truth shines through...

17° is way too much



Do you understand now what I meant to do (and make clear)?



The point is, the hype about how poorly the Cummins ( any other engine for that matter ) runs because of the waaaayyyy to retarded timing is simply a urban legend.



Let me expand this concept.

It is true that the modern diesel engines ( on highway use ) all have the timing retarded for emissions reasons.

It is not true that this slight retard ( we talk about values in the 1-2° range) are sooooo bad for the mileage and mamma horsepower.



Typically such a retarded timing costs a 2% icrease in fuel consumtion and MAYBE one or two ponnies.



Then you say:

Some timing advance is required to bring the engines back to their most efficient running condition (typically resulting in decreased NOx and increased particulate emissions in the case of diesel engines).



What?? Whoever has a deeper insight into diesel engines and their thermodynamics can tell you that NOx is created mostly under high combustion temperatures. Thus the need to RETARD the timing to decrease them, NOT increase the timing like you suggest.



nickleinonen sez:



, but when i was in school tuning up a deutz v6 idi diesel engine, it's base was factory spec'd to 21° advance... . ,



You can't compare oranges to apples!



IDI = in direct injection



The timing of a diesel engine has to deal mainly with two variables.



Injection Retard, is the time it takes for the fuel to get from the injection pump into the combustion chamber



Ignition retard, is the time it takes the fuel to ignite once it's injected.



The pressure wave travels through the diesel fuel at the speed of sound. Knowing that the fuel lines in the second Gen's are 725 millimeters long... well do your math.

It's a constant. That means the time it takes is always the same no matter what RPM the engine is running.



The ignition retard is typically one to two milliseconds. ( Roughly, I don't want to get too deep into it) Also this value remains constant.



We have to deal with two constant numbers ( times) but the time to burn the fuel varies with the RPM. Then faster piston goes up and down then less time we have to burn our fuel.

That's clear as mud?



The modern electronics controlled injection systems are MUCH faster then the old mechanic stuff. The IDI systems had an pre ignition chamber which lead to very slow combustions thus the need for such high timings. I have a Perkins IDI engine in my boat. I've set the timing to 27°... .



Typically the modern diesel engines run arround TDC at idle and up to 15° at high idle.



Sorry for the long post!



Marco

 

[Marco]

Elite1,

Looks like you've seen the better part of my country!

For us Italian guys it's normal to drive the way we do. I'm amazed that YOU drive slower than us... lol



Funny you mention Rome!



I'll leave tomorrow early in the morning, heading to Rome... . Oo.

Belive it or not, it'll the first visit to Rome for me and my family.

We'll stay there four days.



It's about 500 Km from Verona to Rome. I hope to get there in a little less than 4 hours.



Have fun!



Marco

 

[CATCRACKER]

Pit Bull,



If my wife knew that this box voided the warranty she would divorced me. This truck has added enough tension to my marriage already. But life is to short to drive a slow truck:-laf.

Cummins if you read this i would never try to stick you with problems that i caused that is why i want to make sure that these boxes are done right! If a box caused a failure in my truck i would not ask cummins to fix it i think that anyone else on this board should adpot the same ideals. however if the water pump goes out you dang right i will unplug the box and let cummins fix it. If i burn a piston then i will look to edge to find out why they did not retard the timing enough so that the longevity of the motor will not be compromised.



my concern besides the timing issues is the increased fuel pressures wear on the cam, rod bearing(wearing a flat spot).



My understanding is that if you turn up the fuel you have to go to 2 larger sized injector(DD2's) and retard the timing and even lower compression(this is all the have proper engine life with it being turned up). this info comes from a person who has been building cummins for 20+ years.



so the magic answer maybe fueling box, DD2's,hx40/b1,larger fuel lines, larger head gasket to lower compression, retard the timing.

 

[Pit Bull]

:-laf You know Cat your going to have to sell that truck after the divorce. To pay the child support and alimony. :-laf



Have fun, I had to give you some ****. You sound like me before I got old and all of the testosterone drained out of my body

 

[KLockliear]

Originally posted by CATCRACKER

my concern besides the timing issues is the increased fuel pressures wear on the cam, rod bearing(wearing a flat spot).



My understanding is that if you turn up the fuel you have to go to 2 larger sized injector(DD2's) and retard the timing and even lower compression(this is all the have proper engine life with it being turned up). this info comes from a person who has been building cummins for 20+ years.



so the magic answer maybe fueling box, DD2's,hx40/b1,larger fuel lines, larger head gasket to lower compression, retard the timing.

Don't have to go through all that.

 

[CATCRACKER]

Pit Bull,



:-laf





Klock,



i hope that you are right! 130hp box, dd2's, turbo and still 350,000 miles we will see