I have been using 2 -stroke oil (about 1 quart per tank) with good results in my 2003 CTD for a while now. I'm happy with the quieter engine and fuel economy seems to be improved. Does anybody have any opinions about using 2-stroke oil at about the same ratio in a VW TDI. On the TDI site there seems be a generally hostile attitude toward the use of 2-stroke oil, so I'm not posting this there. I'm wondering about effects on emissions systems and the egr. My 2003 doesn't have any of that garbage so I'm not worrying there. Oh, by the way my VW is a 2. 0L TDI Passat. I appreciate any comments. Thanks. Todd Schwantes.
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2-stroke oil in VW TDI?
- Thread starter TSchwantes
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Our Jetta's same year as your's. As the VW TDI has EGR there might be a concern with fouling the intake mainifold. These are notorious for plugging up with no help whatsoever. . so a little more oil in the fuel might just make it worse.
I use 2 stroke oil in my fuel anytime I can't get bio-diesel. In-take fouling is about normal and I just clean it out every few years. Over-all I wouldn't worry about it too much. I would rather have the extra lubricant in the fuel, especially with ULSD, and not worry about toasting the injector pump. The in-tank manifold can always be removed and cleaned if you notice performance dropping. JMHO.
Mike
I wouldn't add anthing to the fuel of a TDI other than some Power Service (gray or white bottle depending on the time of the year... )... ESPECIALLY a "Pump Deuse" (unit injectors) engine like yours.
Beers,
Matt
Beers,
Matt
Matt-
What is it about a PD fuel system that would make the lubrication of 2-stroke oil not necessary? Would you say this is a more robust fuel system than the fuel pumps on the Cummins motor? Also, wouldn't the lubrication still help the injectors have a longer life? I guess I don't understand what would make 2-stroke good in 1 application and not good in another, but it seems the TDI guys really don't like the idea. Thanks for the input. Todd.
What is it about a PD fuel system that would make the lubrication of 2-stroke oil not necessary? Would you say this is a more robust fuel system than the fuel pumps on the Cummins motor? Also, wouldn't the lubrication still help the injectors have a longer life? I guess I don't understand what would make 2-stroke good in 1 application and not good in another, but it seems the TDI guys really don't like the idea. Thanks for the input. Todd.
I used Castrol low ash 2 stroke oil in both my 2003 and 2005 Jetta TDI. The tip came from Mercedes Engineering suggestion. Works great. Also works on my 6. 7 Cummins. Note only about 2. 5 Oz per 55 litre tank is required. Double this on the 128 Litre Dodge Ram (128 Litre)
Are you familiar at all with the PD fuel system?
Here's the TDIClub definition - which is pretty good:
"Other VW TDI models with the 1. 9 litre 4-cylinder of 115 hp or 150 hp, and the 1. 2 litre and 1. 4 litre 3-cylinder engines, use a so-called "pumpe-deuse" (German) or "pump-nozzle" (English translation) system. In these engines, each cylinder has its own small high-pressure fuel pump which is actuated by the same camshaft that operates the intake and exhaust valves. Fuel is delivered to each pump-nozzle by a low-pressure pump serving the same function as the internal vane pump in the distributor-type system. As the engine cylinder approaches the end of the compression stroke, the main pump plunger advances, pressurizing the fuel. A solenoid valve adjacent to each pump-nozzle is normally open and bypasses the fuel. When the solenoid valve is energized, the bypass passage is closed and the fuel is forced to an extremely high pressure and through the injection nozzle. At the end of the required injection period, the solenoid valve de-energizes and any remaining fuel pumped by the plunger bypasses the nozzle. Thus, fuel is injected as long as the solenoid is energized, allowing full control of injection timing and duration. This system has the significant advantage of eliminating the separate high-pressure fuel lines from the pump to the nozzle because it is all built into a single unit, thus giving better control of the injection cycle. "
These unit injectors are $400+ a pop - and they're kinda like the 7. 3/6. 0 PSD injectors. They're slightly easier to swap out in the VW compared to a PSD if something goes wrong, but it's still not a job I'd look forward to. (The 7. 3/6. 0 PSD's use high pressure engine oil to hydraulically actuate the injectors which are commanded with AC voltage to open/close - this has to be the one of the worst ideas I've ever had the misfortune of working on... )
I would say that the PD fuel system is LESS robust in terms of being able to withstand impurities in the fuel than even the problematic VP44 - pretty much all other fuel systems on a B-series are quite robust and a lot less simple. Other Cummins engines/fuel systems have a varied history and service record... CAPS. :-laf (Unit injection is stop-gap technology to get folks past the pump/distributor - nozzle approach and into the common-rail age. It provided higher injection pressures to clean up emissions, but it is problematic... )
Take the common-rail approach for example - the CP3 high pressure fuel pump does only that... make high pressure fuel... which is then distributed to the rail and then to each injector. Each injector is then commanded to open/close independently. The CP3 has no concept of timing and it couldn't really care. . it's an incredibly simple and highly effective fuel system... the complexity lies in the ECM - but it only needs a few variables obtained from sensors monitoring the operational characteristics of the engine to determine what to do.
With PD, you have 4 high pressure fuel pumps each built into a unit injector that is also being commanded to open/close independently - see where I'm going with this?
VE44, P7100 are very forgiving due to the lesser injection pressures involved. The VP44 isn't terribly forgiving and has some very tight tolerances inside, but I'd worry less about putting non-OEM recommended fuel additives through that pump than I would a PD. Besides, they're easier to change not to mention readily available - you can't say that for the PD fuel system.
My best advice for a PD owner would be to install a 2-micron fuel filter and add a little Power Service every so often.
It's not that the PD doesn't need extra lubrication - it does... I'd just use stuff that was designed specifically for a diesel fuel system. 2-stroke oil might work OK, but I wouldn't use it in anything but a 2-stroke.
On edit: I'm not defending the TDI Club by any stretch of the imagination. The majority of their members wouldn't even think for a second to do anything that isn't in their owner's manual... however the PD fuel system is expensive to repair and delicate... so they're being cautious... as I would be if I were asked to provide advice on one. I wouldn't own a PD engine and may not get a new TDI when they're common-rail... we'll see how VAG handles the new engine after it has arrived stateside and run around for a year or two.
Beers,
Matt
Here's the TDIClub definition - which is pretty good:
"Other VW TDI models with the 1. 9 litre 4-cylinder of 115 hp or 150 hp, and the 1. 2 litre and 1. 4 litre 3-cylinder engines, use a so-called "pumpe-deuse" (German) or "pump-nozzle" (English translation) system. In these engines, each cylinder has its own small high-pressure fuel pump which is actuated by the same camshaft that operates the intake and exhaust valves. Fuel is delivered to each pump-nozzle by a low-pressure pump serving the same function as the internal vane pump in the distributor-type system. As the engine cylinder approaches the end of the compression stroke, the main pump plunger advances, pressurizing the fuel. A solenoid valve adjacent to each pump-nozzle is normally open and bypasses the fuel. When the solenoid valve is energized, the bypass passage is closed and the fuel is forced to an extremely high pressure and through the injection nozzle. At the end of the required injection period, the solenoid valve de-energizes and any remaining fuel pumped by the plunger bypasses the nozzle. Thus, fuel is injected as long as the solenoid is energized, allowing full control of injection timing and duration. This system has the significant advantage of eliminating the separate high-pressure fuel lines from the pump to the nozzle because it is all built into a single unit, thus giving better control of the injection cycle. "
These unit injectors are $400+ a pop - and they're kinda like the 7. 3/6. 0 PSD injectors. They're slightly easier to swap out in the VW compared to a PSD if something goes wrong, but it's still not a job I'd look forward to. (The 7. 3/6. 0 PSD's use high pressure engine oil to hydraulically actuate the injectors which are commanded with AC voltage to open/close - this has to be the one of the worst ideas I've ever had the misfortune of working on... )
I would say that the PD fuel system is LESS robust in terms of being able to withstand impurities in the fuel than even the problematic VP44 - pretty much all other fuel systems on a B-series are quite robust and a lot less simple. Other Cummins engines/fuel systems have a varied history and service record... CAPS. :-laf (Unit injection is stop-gap technology to get folks past the pump/distributor - nozzle approach and into the common-rail age. It provided higher injection pressures to clean up emissions, but it is problematic... )
Take the common-rail approach for example - the CP3 high pressure fuel pump does only that... make high pressure fuel... which is then distributed to the rail and then to each injector. Each injector is then commanded to open/close independently. The CP3 has no concept of timing and it couldn't really care. . it's an incredibly simple and highly effective fuel system... the complexity lies in the ECM - but it only needs a few variables obtained from sensors monitoring the operational characteristics of the engine to determine what to do.
With PD, you have 4 high pressure fuel pumps each built into a unit injector that is also being commanded to open/close independently - see where I'm going with this?
VE44, P7100 are very forgiving due to the lesser injection pressures involved. The VP44 isn't terribly forgiving and has some very tight tolerances inside, but I'd worry less about putting non-OEM recommended fuel additives through that pump than I would a PD. Besides, they're easier to change not to mention readily available - you can't say that for the PD fuel system.
My best advice for a PD owner would be to install a 2-micron fuel filter and add a little Power Service every so often.
It's not that the PD doesn't need extra lubrication - it does... I'd just use stuff that was designed specifically for a diesel fuel system. 2-stroke oil might work OK, but I wouldn't use it in anything but a 2-stroke.
On edit: I'm not defending the TDI Club by any stretch of the imagination. The majority of their members wouldn't even think for a second to do anything that isn't in their owner's manual... however the PD fuel system is expensive to repair and delicate... so they're being cautious... as I would be if I were asked to provide advice on one. I wouldn't own a PD engine and may not get a new TDI when they're common-rail... we'll see how VAG handles the new engine after it has arrived stateside and run around for a year or two.
Beers,
Matt
Last edited:
Regardless of whether or not the TDI-PD is a good fuel system design (and I guess I'd prefer something with proven reliabilty, but I REALLY wanted a diesel Passat so I settled for the PD), wouldn't increased lubricity of the fuel help in all cases. Wouldn't improved lubrication potentially protect the fuel system from the negative consequences of particles in the fuel? I'm just trying to get a handle on what's going on in the fuel system. With 2 -stroke oil addition, the opinions seem to be I'm either doing a very good thing or a very bad thing. Maybe I'll only know after several hunderd thousand miles (hopefully). Thanks for all the information. Todd.Of course increased lubricity is a good thing for any fuel system - but using a product inconsistent with its labeling and not for its intended purpose *could* have side effects.
Come up with your own risk/benefit comparison and figure out what you want to do. Ask yourself some questions about this practice:
1) What exactly does 2-stroke oil do or provide that a normal and proper diesel fuel additive does not?
2) Why am I using 2-stroke oil instead of either nothing at all or a proper diesel fuel additive?
If it is a matter of cost, it might cost you in the long run if what you're doing bites you square in the arse. Pay me now, pay me later... penny wise and pound foolish... . etc.
What in particular would you like to know about the PD fuel system (or any other fuel system)? Maybe knowing additional info would help you, and I'll do my best to explain it from what I've learned...
Beers,
Matt
Come up with your own risk/benefit comparison and figure out what you want to do. Ask yourself some questions about this practice:
1) What exactly does 2-stroke oil do or provide that a normal and proper diesel fuel additive does not?
2) Why am I using 2-stroke oil instead of either nothing at all or a proper diesel fuel additive?
If it is a matter of cost, it might cost you in the long run if what you're doing bites you square in the arse. Pay me now, pay me later... penny wise and pound foolish... . etc.
What in particular would you like to know about the PD fuel system (or any other fuel system)? Maybe knowing additional info would help you, and I'll do my best to explain it from what I've learned...
Beers,
Matt
Hi Todd,
At the risk of sounding a little disrepectful (not my intention)... What the heck are you trying to lubricate at that ratio!? That much oil could still (marginally) lubricate the cylinder walls and crank bearings of a 2 stroke!. If you're trying to provide some lube for the injector tips, injector pump, high pressure fuel pump or whatever your particular fuel system has I think a few ounces in your tank adds plenty of lube, but would still be diluted enough to not harm anything.
That said, exactly what are you trying so hard to lubricate in a pump duesse? I've never heard of a lube related fuel system failure on one of those(but I've been in the dark before).
Have a good weekend.
Joe
At the risk of sounding a little disrepectful (not my intention)... What the heck are you trying to lubricate at that ratio!? That much oil could still (marginally) lubricate the cylinder walls and crank bearings of a 2 stroke!. If you're trying to provide some lube for the injector tips, injector pump, high pressure fuel pump or whatever your particular fuel system has I think a few ounces in your tank adds plenty of lube, but would still be diluted enough to not harm anything.
That said, exactly what are you trying so hard to lubricate in a pump duesse? I've never heard of a lube related fuel system failure on one of those(but I've been in the dark before).
Have a good weekend.
Joe
Hey you guys... you're all picking on me. :{ I'm just trying to make some sense of this whole 2-stroke oil thing. Don't beat me up too bad!
First off. . a whole lot of people on this site and other Cummins sites are true believers in 2-stroke oil as a fuel additive (I am not, necessarily... yet). There are a whole lot of people who have seen much quieter and smoother running trucks and better fuel economy using 2-stroke oil. The most common ratio used is 1 oz. 2-stroke per gallon of fuel. I originally tried a much smaller quantity of 2-stroke oil without an noticable benefit (1oz per 4 gallons or so), but after a lot of reading on this and other sites I tried the 1oz per gallon and I too have seen a significant quieting of my truck and I seem to have gained about 1 mpg (up to about 21. 5 mpg, hand calculated on my normal driving, mostly highway at about 60mph). Based on upon the benefits I have seen I am becoming a believer in 2-stroke oil in my 305/555 2003 Cummins. I think a lot of people believe that the use of 2-stroke oil is a remedy for the poor lubricity characteristics of ULSD.
This brings me to my second point... my understanding is that the lubricity of ULSD IS poor. If I'm not mistaken, the lubricity standard for fuel is considered a minimum acceptable level by Bosch (I know there's a Bosch presentation floating around on one of these sites that shows a higher level of lubricity than ULSD is needed to prevent fuel system damage). There's also a lot of information on these sites about a fuel additive study that was done on either a Ford or GM diesel site (I believe it's called Spicer's additive study) that indicated that 2-stroke oil was one of only 3 or maybe 4 additives that brought the lubricity of ULSD up to the levels considered necessary by Bosch! Only a biodiesel blend provided better lubrication.
This finally brings me to my final point (and my real question)... If 2-stroke oil is good diesel fuel additive for the Cummins motor, wouldn't it also be good for a VW TDI? What is is about the TDI-PD fuel delivery system that would make it less succeptible to damage by poor lubricity than a 2nd generation Dodge/Cummins or a Cummins CR? I know in the CR Cummins the CP3 and the injectors have been problematic. Is the TDI-PD fuel system better able to handle poor lubrication?
As I said before, I'm just looking to make sense of some of the conflicting sentiment I've seen about 2-stroke oil addition. It's generally positive on the Cummins sites and extremely negative on tdi club. What's the deal? Thanks, guys for all the feedback so far... I've found this to be a very interesting thread.
Todd.
First off. . a whole lot of people on this site and other Cummins sites are true believers in 2-stroke oil as a fuel additive (I am not, necessarily... yet). There are a whole lot of people who have seen much quieter and smoother running trucks and better fuel economy using 2-stroke oil. The most common ratio used is 1 oz. 2-stroke per gallon of fuel. I originally tried a much smaller quantity of 2-stroke oil without an noticable benefit (1oz per 4 gallons or so), but after a lot of reading on this and other sites I tried the 1oz per gallon and I too have seen a significant quieting of my truck and I seem to have gained about 1 mpg (up to about 21. 5 mpg, hand calculated on my normal driving, mostly highway at about 60mph). Based on upon the benefits I have seen I am becoming a believer in 2-stroke oil in my 305/555 2003 Cummins. I think a lot of people believe that the use of 2-stroke oil is a remedy for the poor lubricity characteristics of ULSD.
This brings me to my second point... my understanding is that the lubricity of ULSD IS poor. If I'm not mistaken, the lubricity standard for fuel is considered a minimum acceptable level by Bosch (I know there's a Bosch presentation floating around on one of these sites that shows a higher level of lubricity than ULSD is needed to prevent fuel system damage). There's also a lot of information on these sites about a fuel additive study that was done on either a Ford or GM diesel site (I believe it's called Spicer's additive study) that indicated that 2-stroke oil was one of only 3 or maybe 4 additives that brought the lubricity of ULSD up to the levels considered necessary by Bosch! Only a biodiesel blend provided better lubrication.
This finally brings me to my final point (and my real question)... If 2-stroke oil is good diesel fuel additive for the Cummins motor, wouldn't it also be good for a VW TDI? What is is about the TDI-PD fuel delivery system that would make it less succeptible to damage by poor lubricity than a 2nd generation Dodge/Cummins or a Cummins CR? I know in the CR Cummins the CP3 and the injectors have been problematic. Is the TDI-PD fuel system better able to handle poor lubrication?
As I said before, I'm just looking to make sense of some of the conflicting sentiment I've seen about 2-stroke oil addition. It's generally positive on the Cummins sites and extremely negative on tdi club. What's the deal? Thanks, guys for all the feedback so far... I've found this to be a very interesting thread.
Todd.
Todd,
Just my opinion so take it for what it is worth.
I had a 2003 Jetta TDI. It was a nice little car but I had it to the shop 8 times in ten months. Kind of irritating... ...
If you have a warranty on your car, I wouldn't add anything to it. If a tech. figures it out, they could have an argument to deny any claims on that engine should an issue arise.
Just be careful. In my experience, VW (at the regional level and I believe you are the same region) had little desire to help with warranty issues and flat out denied a problem that had been on going but just happened to come up a 3rd time when the car was 3000 miles out of warranty.
Needless to say I don't own that car anymore. I do miss the 50 mpg though!
Pete
Just my opinion so take it for what it is worth.
I had a 2003 Jetta TDI. It was a nice little car but I had it to the shop 8 times in ten months. Kind of irritating... ...
If you have a warranty on your car, I wouldn't add anything to it. If a tech. figures it out, they could have an argument to deny any claims on that engine should an issue arise.
Just be careful. In my experience, VW (at the regional level and I believe you are the same region) had little desire to help with warranty issues and flat out denied a problem that had been on going but just happened to come up a 3rd time when the car was 3000 miles out of warranty.
Needless to say I don't own that car anymore. I do miss the 50 mpg though!
Pete
The "Spicer" lubricity test you're referring to was done using unadditized ULSD. In other words it was a worse case scenario. Typical ULSD will will have an additive package that addresses lubricity. Most of us add a lubricant as insurance... just in case that new guy at the fuel rack didn't get it right.
As to using 2 stroke oil in diesel fuel, at let's say 1 oz per gallon, I just don't see a problem with it. It's ashless, has about the same BTU's as D#2 and burns very well. Most 2 stroke injector oil use naptha as a solvent to thin the oil and help it burn in a SI (gas) engine. Naptha is a common (sometimes main) ingredient in most diesel fuel additive/injector cleaner's. A quart of 2 stroke oil is about 20% naptha so if your adding 16 oz of oil per fill-up your getting a little over 3 oz of naptha in that mix.
2 stroke oil is one of the more bland concoctions we throw in our fuel tanks. Look at the stuff in Stanedyne or Amsoil diesel fuel additive: Trimethylbenzine, Xylene, Isopropylbenzine, Stoddard solvent, etc. . By comparison 2 stroke oil is like baby formula... . oil + naptha.
Anyway, my opinion is it's not only safe to use. . it has to help with lubricity. Should a PD engine, or any engine (gas or diesel) ever show excessive wear or damage from using 2 stroke oil i would be a little surprised. I still like 2% bio as the best lubricant for the price (we're talking penny's per fill-up) but 2 stroke injector oil is my second choice.
Mike
As to using 2 stroke oil in diesel fuel, at let's say 1 oz per gallon, I just don't see a problem with it. It's ashless, has about the same BTU's as D#2 and burns very well. Most 2 stroke injector oil use naptha as a solvent to thin the oil and help it burn in a SI (gas) engine. Naptha is a common (sometimes main) ingredient in most diesel fuel additive/injector cleaner's. A quart of 2 stroke oil is about 20% naptha so if your adding 16 oz of oil per fill-up your getting a little over 3 oz of naptha in that mix.
2 stroke oil is one of the more bland concoctions we throw in our fuel tanks. Look at the stuff in Stanedyne or Amsoil diesel fuel additive: Trimethylbenzine, Xylene, Isopropylbenzine, Stoddard solvent, etc. . By comparison 2 stroke oil is like baby formula... . oil + naptha.
Anyway, my opinion is it's not only safe to use. . it has to help with lubricity. Should a PD engine, or any engine (gas or diesel) ever show excessive wear or damage from using 2 stroke oil i would be a little surprised. I still like 2% bio as the best lubricant for the price (we're talking penny's per fill-up) but 2 stroke injector oil is my second choice.
Mike
Just so you know, if your particulate filter takes a crap, it'll be on your dime. Additives on the new 6. 7L may plug the DPF. That's the new party line, so use additives on your 6. 7 at your own risk.
The only thing VW endorses is Stanadyne. Search for the VW TSB on this. Anything else, they will be a real PIA on your warranty.
JED
JED
Thanks for all the suggestions. I think I'm going to go with the "normal" dose of stanadyne performance formula (which I've always used) about 4oz, and a lower dosage of 2-stroke oil than the 1oz/gallon that the Cummins guys seem to prefer. I'm thinking about 1 oz per about 2 gallons or about 7-8 oz per tank (along with the stanadyne). Thanks again everyone for the input. Todd.
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