2000 ford 450 problem

[RGRAT1618]

Got a 2000 Ford F-450 crew cab that has been converted to a rescue squad. We keep killing batteries. As everyone knows, once the voltage goes so low the truck shuts off. So far we have an idle kicker, a bigger altanator(powerline) and a load manager. If the truck id parked the load manager and idle kicker works and dose it's job. We can't put on a second altanator because we have a belt ran 120/240v AC genarator mounted in it's spot. This is becomming a big problem. Any suggestions please. I need lots of help on this one. The people that build the truck did not do a good job. It's took me and anthor guy almoast a year to get most of the problems solved.

 

[klenger]

If the truck has a 115 vac 60 Hz generator, just install an RV converter/charger to charge the batteries. Some type of an isolator might be required, but maybe not.

 

[Rescue Ram]

Hey,

I have a couple of questions and then maybe I can be of some help...

Who built the truck?

When are the batteries going dead? Is the condition while it is parked in the station, while on calls, or?

How many amps is the alternator?

How many & what combination of lights are you running? (Strobes, rotators, halogen flashers, LED's, etc)

Where in pgh are you? My grandparents used to live in Robinson Twp... Forest Grove VFD. I used to visit all the time

 

[bmoeller]

I know Ford has a 2nd alt. to use for that application. You may be able to get a bigger single alt. depending on how much juice you need.

 

[Ncostello]

I do know that Ford includes dual 110A alts on with the ambulance prep package assuming your truck has that package... which it should cause the only way to get factory dual alts is with it. They also strictly prohibit any upfitter under the QVB program from installing higher amp alternators (ie: aftermarket) on ambulances. Your squad qualifies as ambulance to Ford as it is used to "transport life saving equipment, and has an idle kicker device". They state in their bulletins any company who does so can/will be removed from the Ford authorized builder program... which is bad for the builder. So normally they wont do it. Who installed the bigger alt? Just curious.



On the dual alt models on 6. 0's... the PCM will choose one specific alternator at random to power the glow plugs and some other stuff. If you remove one alternator... the PCM may choose the missing one thus causing drain without re-charge. The next time it cycles it may choose the alternator still on the truck so your OK. But there is no rhyme or reason to which one it chooses. It could choose the missing one 10 times in a row. I always figured the dual alternators functioned as a pair... but I was proven wrong after reading the electrical system description. They in fact somehow operate independently through the computer in the truck.



Now keep in mind thats on the 6. 0 ambulance prep package. You have the 7. 3... but the logic could still be the same. I'd first double check with a good Ford tech source to find if this happens on the 7. 3 trucks.



You should not be using more power than supplied on that truck. There probably isn't a terrible amount of load on the alts like would be on a large apparatus or paramedic ambulance. I'd check the dual alt logic first... then go from there.



Are the batteries OK? Does the load manager shut anything off before the truck dies? Whats the charging volts shown on the idle manager panel?



Lastly... are the batteries OK. We've ran into bad batteries before that were shorted inside but somehow still functioning in the parallel system.



Very lastly... we once had a truck where the alt lead was damaged and only a couple strands were left. It still charged ok until you turned everything on then started discharging.

 

[RGRAT1618]

The batteries are now ok. There used to be a daul alt set-up. But one alt. was removed to install the Aura Gen. It is a 120/240v ac genarator powered of the belt. It takes the place of one of the Alts. This is one reason we are having these problems. So far 2 companies have looked at this truck. A company named Glick Fire in cranberry upgraded the Alt. If he truck is on scene, and the drive remembers to but the E-brake on there is no problems. I idle kicker kicks up the idle to 1100 rpm, and the load manager will shed some of the load if it needs to. The problem is notice at some parades, and going to some long response calls. like 20 minutes or so. This truck was just put togather real bad by the company that made it. Now it's fun tring to get things right.





Rob

 

[Ncostello]

Our 2000 KME Rescue Pumper has 5 Group 31 batteries and a 300 amp alternator. However only 3 of the batteries actually power the lights and accessories while the other two perform engine/transmission computer functions.



KME advised us to maintain 1100 rpm for extended periods to maintain charge and keep the load manager from shedding loads. But thats kinda hard to do in parades and when folks forget to kick the high idle switch on... like you mentioned. We were told on our truck that, with everything on possible, 1000 engine rpm was the speed at which no charge was lost or gained... thus the 1100 rpm setting would maintain a positive charge. The high idler operates at 1200 rpm.



The Aux Engine Idle Controller system the Ford has can be preprogramed with 4 different settings for idle speed. Its sole function is to maintain charge and monitor the batteries. Check the book on that module and see if you can program it to automatically come on when the truck is parked or something like that. That way you dont have to place the brake on to get it to function. Would make it firefighter proof then.



I'm pretty sure there are multiple settings you can program into the unit as to when it activates high idle. I was playing around with the one on the ambulance once and accidentally removed all the settings. I had to get online and download the instruction manual for the unit so I could program it again.



I know its tough when the builder does crap work. Been there and done that. We spent 1 1/2 years on an e-one getting everything right. I know of one department locally that spent a year dealing with problems on a ladder quint made by one of the top companies. Then the warranty ran out and they finally had to go elsewhere to get it fixed on their own dime. Gave them a real sour taste for that company. Even the best out there have been known to do some rush, crap jobs on trucks. Unless your spending the big bucks and making plant visits often they seem to just get it together as fast as possible so they can move on.

 

[Ncostello]

1999 F-Series changes to wiring



That link will take you to the page where Ford made notice about the dual altenators on 7. 3 PSD ambulance packages. If you remove one, the PCM will only allow one alternator to function when the glow plugs are active... as the 6. 0 also does. If the PCM chooses the missing alternator, glow plug power will come directly from the batteries without help from the alternator.



I dont know your climate or how often the glow plugs cycle but if they did cycle often enough, it could be draining your batteries. I know the Dodge grid cycles even after complete warm up. I dont know about the Fords.



There is a way around this wiring logic if you go to a single alternator. Ford tells how to make the changes in their harness to bypass the PCM choosing the missing alternator.



I would at least look there first to eliminate that possibility on the 7. 3 PSD.



I like that green color. Pennsylvania... . the state with the most colorful fire apparatus by far.

 

[RGRAT1618]

How do I tell if it is choosing the wrong alt. I am not totaly sure if it was set up from the factory with 2 alt's. I was just told it was by anthor member. This truck is becomming a real problem.

 

[RGRAT1618]

I made a mistake on the year of the truck. It is a 01. Made 03 of 01. This change the wiring you gave before. Or is it the same as the 99.



Rob

 

[Ncostello]

Wiring on an 01 should be the same as 1999. The models were introduced in 99 and the notice was for future models also I believe. There is no way to tell if its chosing the missing alternator as its random somehow (according to 6. 0L bulletins). You can only bypass the wiring and force it to chose the remaining one. The 6. 0L diesel has a specific bulletin telling exactly how to do this by disconnecting some wires in the PCM harness. I can't find instructions for the 7. 3 of any year 99 and up.



I would consult a good ford commercial dealership and see if 7. 3 instructions exist. Also I assume the glows cycle when running and its cold. Is this a problem year round or just now in cold weather.



Are you 100% sure the alternator works under load. I assume you tested it. Do you have a volt meter running during your problem so you can see the downward trend of volts? I'm not familiar with the Powerline alts so I cant speak on how they hook up. This is a big bummer I know. I've been on scenes before and watched as rotating lights got dimmer and slower. Fortunately the engines were not electronic and kept on going. At least we could still pump water unlike todays rigs.

 

[RGRAT1618]

This problem is not only when it's cold. It's all the time. I am going to look at the wiring to see if that will help. I would just love to rip the genarator off the truck and put on a second alt. Maybe switch all the lights to LED. No wait, they won't go for that. Well I will just keep picking away at this. Thanks everyone for the help. With everyones help we should get this fixed.



Rob

 

[Truckie]

RGRAT1618 I have just finished reading the post about your rescue truck here, I feel for ya. Everything that I know to try has already been told to you. The best advice I can tell you is to contact my buddy Tom he is real familiar with these kinds of problems as he has about 15 years experience building and refurbishing emergency vehicles and has helped me out a few times with my own personal truck, and some of the equipment we have at out station. I just finished talk en to Tom and he told me to give you his phone number, the best part is he is only about 15 minutes from you station.

His # is (412) 885-5911

Just tell him that Mike from MT. Oliver VFD sent you.

Hope this helps you.

MIKE

 

[Rescue Ram]

Hey,

Another idea for you to check...

Do you have a master battery kill switch installed? We have an '01 F-500/7. 3 brush truck. It seems to me that on thesestrucks, if the pcm looses power, it can cause a whole pastle of problems. Seems that we had to have that changed on the '01, but not 100% sure. I know for sure it is a problem on our new 6. 0 wunderkind (early build '03)... but i can't remember for sure on the 01 or the 99. Just a thought.

Brian

 

[Ncostello]

You must have power to the computers all the time. The ambulance builders guide from Ford tells how to wire up "keep alive" power to the PCM when a master disconnect is installed. The truck would have to relearn everything everytime its powered up. That would be a nightmare which is why Ford tells folks how to maintain 12V to the PCM. Takes something like 10 miles for the transmission to relearn how to shift properly. I'm not sure what it does to the engine.



Often companies will have a third battery that is not disconnected from the PCM's.

 

[RGRAT1618]

Well the truck went back to the wonderful shop. They said the battteries went bad. I guess they can't see there is a bigger problem. I give it about 3 weeks before it dies again.



Rob

 

[Ncostello]

If so... then I'd disconnect all the batteries. Then I'd place an ampmeter inline with one battery connected and see how many amperes are being pulled with the truck dead. If could be the batteries are draining even w/o the truck being on. Its possible. Perhaps the shoreline charger can barely keep them at 12V and when you are running it only gets worse.



I'd even go as far to see how many amps are leaving the batteries while the truck is running. Something is pulling alot of power if the alt and batteries are OK. Something is malfunctioning or a dead short or ???? There is a cause of this and it has to be narrowed down.



EDIT: I just realized this was my 1000th post! Time flys when your having fun!

 

[RGRAT1618]

Update



Well after doing some research with Fords computer, The truck was ordered with 2 alt. It was shipped with only one. So now I am back to figuring out how to solve this problem with only one alt. Since I only have one. I called Powerline to see if the make a bigger alt for this truck. They do not. So I am still looking for some ideas. Thanks everyone for all the help so far.





Rob

 

[Scot]

FWIW, when we bought our quintasaurus, we were told to replace the batteries every year due to the big demands made on the them. Lights, Telma reatarder etc. He said do not wait till things start screwing up. So what happens is the truck will start hanging in gear (on code 3 runs) and you have to stop, shut down, turn off master, restart, pray. Then the shop installs new batteries...

 

[Snow man]

If theres room ditch the factory alts and run one of the big Leece Nevilles out ofthe big trucks,even the 140 amp model outs out 140 at idle,and over 200 at speed. they self excite too,just hook up one big power wire to the batts and forget all the BS wiring you have now. I know TDR member Big Ram guy did this to his Dodge Cummins a plow truck, and its still working good today. ITs a big sucker though it needs plenty of room. Even without a core they go for well under 200 bucks,and can be found anywhere.