Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) 2001 3500 cranks but doesn't start

[diesel DOG]

truck has 179,000 on it. Second lift pump in truck dealer put one in tank at about 50,000 under warranty. 10 days ago I had cranked it and it didn't start right away so I left it for 5 minutes then it started right up. 3 days ago it did the same thing so I gave it a tad of ether / starting fluid and it started. I reved it up and fuel pressure looked ok it was 10 or 11 and when reved up it didn't drop much. Yesterday it did the same thing and I gave it a bit of starting fluid with no luck. I didn't want to put much in so I stopped till I can check somethings. Going to start with fuel filter but I don't think it is that because when started it ran fine at 2,000 for a while.



Any ideas on what else to check before I have to tow it to take it somewhere? Can I spray some diesel fuel in the air cleaner inlet to the turbo to get it going? Original owner and never had this before it has always started great hot or cold. When I got it going the other day and shut it off it started right back up with no problem. Any kind of check valve on the fuel system that keeps it from draining back the fuel? I had a 88 ford diesel that had that or they put one in it I forgot.



thanks for your help.



also posted it in the 911 section.

 

[Road Dog]

The next time bump the starter. The lift pump should run for 15 seconds. Then try to start normally. If it starts fine then the fuel is draining out. Which it shouldn't.

 

[gtwitch]

diesel dog ,,Look back a few weeks at one of the posts about this issue and I chimed in with my saga of 10 or months of hard starting in eitheer cold or hot weather and it turned out to be air leaking into the system, while sitting overnight, at the fuel pressure electric sending unit which on my 99 the unit was on the top of the filter body. I fought this for a long time and it was geting worse but I only discovered the leak by observing bubbles slowly at the threaded sending unit shortly after starting. Also look at Chips trouble shooting guides (Blue Chip). I was just getting ready to do Chip's test woth the clear tygon tubing.



gtwitch in wyoming

 

[diesel DOG]

great thanks guys!

 

[diesel DOG]

I guess these are the codes as best I can read them PPCU, PE, Pdone, PECU. Any tips are appreciated. thanks batteries don't crank but I heard no hint of lift pump running. Will charge in the AM. Thanks for the help!

 

[diesel DOG]

I see Pdone means end and I have no 216 code for a V-44pump thank goodness, I hope! Guessing lift pump now as I can't hear it run.

 

[diesel DOG]

Running again! Bleed fuel filter with lever and no fuel. Then bumped the key a few times and I had more fuel in filter and almost started. Now I bumped starter again about 6-7 times and it started. Still not really hearing pump with all the bonging going on with key being in. I guess I have an air leak / fuel leak somewhere. Best way to track that down is? thanks

 

[JR]

That's good to hear, more than likely it will be a cheap repair. FYI, best way to test fuel pressure is with engine under load. Idling it up in the driveway is not going to pull the fuel pressure down like taking it down the road and matting the throttle will, although it sounds like your lift pump is most likely ok.
What you need to do is start from the injection pump and work your way slowly and methodically back to the fuel tank. Check every single connection, fitting, hose, etc on the entire fuel system. Even your fuel pressure gauge. The slightest leak will allow fuel to siphon back to the tank which is probably causing your hard starts. It does not have to be a dripping leak to give you problems, so be very thorough when going over everything.

 

[diesel DOG]

Well I took it out and matted it till 55-60 mph fuel pressure went down to 6 or 7. Truck ran strong no problems. If it was leaking fuel would it not suck air and kill performance?

Idle is about 10 lb. I am going out now to start it again.

Is there a check valve in the lift pump or fuel system?

So far does see any fuel leaking out of anywhere.
I have the dodge shop manual but have no clue where it is as everything is still a bit scrambled and packed away from hurricane Sandy. thanks

 

[JR]

6 PSI is a little low for comfort for me but for all I know may be par for the factory in tank lift pumps. The lowest I've ever seen the block mounted lift pump is about 8 psi under wot. There is a relief valve on the vp at the return line, it is set for 14 psi. A very small leak will not affect performance while running, but will be enough to cause hard starts after sitting for a while.

 

[diesel DOG]

I'll see If I can get my mechanic to throw a gauge on the VP pump. thanks. He's leaving for vacation in a few days so he's trying to knock out all his work.

 

[JR]

just for clarification the relief valve at the vp is for the lift pump. If the lift pump puts out anymore than 14 psi than the relief valve opens and returns the excess fuel to the tank. One way to check it is to gently clamp the rubber return line and see if the pressure on your gauge increases. I dont know the in tank lift pumps well enough to know for certain but I am pretty sure you are seeing close to normal fuel pressure.
If the injection pumps pressure drops you will notice the decrease in performance and codes will be thrown most likely.

 

[Sticks]

Your 8 psi WOT no load and 6 psi on the road is way low.

10 PSI minimum under any load - otherwise you are rapidly shortening the life of your VP.

Presuming you have not washed your engine bay for a while, check for oil. dirt buildup on the fuel lines. Any buildup around a connection, banjo bolt, etc will be an indicator. It is entirely possible that the water/fuel drain on the filter housing is the problem - The o-rings don't like the ULS Diesel and get nicked easy by debris that the filter catches.

As noted above - your pressure regulator on the return side of the VP might be getting weak, don't know that I would pinch off the return line to see if the pressure goes up though.

If you have access to an air compressor and a blow gun, pressurize the fuel tank to about 10-15 psi (just hold a rag over the inlet while blowing the air in) for a couple of minuets. Then look for fresh leaks or puddles on the ground - that is my usual first step in trying to ID the source of any leaks in the fuel system.

 

[JR]

Sticks, I'm sure you've pressured many tanks in your day and had no issues doing so, otherwise you wouldn't be recommending it. But it should also be noted that fuel tanks ARE NOT pressure vessels. They were never designed for such, and at best were likely hydro tested at 2-3 psi. Which means at 15 Psi you are literally risking blowing your tank up like a balloon, only its full of diesel fuel not air or water. It is a risky method regardless of how many times you've gotten away with it and one should be aware of the risks before doing so. Just ask any one with a fuel oil tank for heating oil. The fuel delivery man is not allowed to fill a tank without having the vent in reach where he can feel the air being vented out of the tank as he is filling it. The reason for this Is if the vent were to be plugged off the volume of fuel being fed in to the tank could be enough to burst the tank. IIRC they are only designed for around 5 Psi. Same concept with the tank in a vehicle. Again, I know many others do this and get away with it, but that doesn't make it any safer to do.



On the other hand pinching a fuel line off to check for a failing overflow valve isn't going to blow anything up :-laf

 

[diesel DOG]

Your 8 psi WOT no load and 6 psi on the road is way low.



10 PSI minimum under any load - otherwise you are rapidly shortening the life of your VP.



Presuming you have not washed your engine bay for a while, check for oil. dirt buildup on the fuel lines. Any buildup around a connection, banjo bolt, etc will be an indicator. It is entirely possible that the water/fuel drain on the filter housing is the problem - The o-rings don't like the ULS Diesel and get nicked easy by debris that the filter catches.



As noted above - your pressure regulator on the return side of the VP might be getting weak, don't know that I would pinch off the return line to see if the pressure goes up though.



If you have access to an air compressor and a blow gun, pressurize the fuel tank to about 10-15 psi (just hold a rag over the inlet while blowing the air in) for a couple of minuets. Then look for fresh leaks or puddles on the ground - that is my usual first step in trying to ID the source of any leaks in the fuel system.

yesterday I saw a drip coming out of the filter drain. I figured it was there from when I bled it previously. It was one drop. It made me suspect if it was leaking. it drips down where I can see what it hits but with the near 100 degree temps here now that may no tell me the story. So I think I will clean it good with ether or something and then wrap a rag on the end or paper towel. Tube is old and broken off short. I was going to put on a new piece. If I put a piece on and band and clamp the end I could see what goes in it. Not sure if the closed tube would prevent the drip or slow it but I'll try it anyway.



Does that little bleed assembly get replace if that is the cause or just o-rings that I can get at the dealer if that is the cause?



If that don't work when my mechanic gets back he can pressurize the tank better than me with more control and watch PSI.



thanks guys I will keep you posted. The heat and humidity is absolutely brutal on Long Island. I will at least see if it starts today and throw a towel under the drain.



thanks.

 

[pfmoale]

Diesel Dog,

IMHO, if you have a 2001 truck with a VP44 injection pump, you really should have a permanently mounted fuel pressure gauge in the cab.
I have both a gauge, and the small LED lite mounted in the center 4 gauge instrument cluster (from Banks).
Already replaced the I. P (From Blue Chip Diesel), so, to protect a $2,000 I. P. , to me a $60 fuel pressure gauge is worth it !

Had the same problem with the water drain valve under the F. F. . Purchased a new one from Geno's, however you probably can just get the "O" rings. Are they American or metric sized ???

Peter

 

[Sticks]

Used to be able to get the O-rings from Dodge, now they sell you the whole drain assembly.

You might be able to take it in to a specialty shop that has a selection of O-rings rated for fuel and get replacements. Not just your average car parts store.

 

[diesel DOG]

Diesel Dog,



IMHO, if you have a 2001 truck with a VP44 injection pump, you really should have a permanently mounted fuel pressure gauge in the cab.

I have both a gauge, and the small LED lite mounted in the center 4 gauge instrument cluster (from Banks).

Already replaced the I. P (From Blue Chip Diesel), so, to protect a $2,000 I. P. , to me a $60 fuel pressure gauge is worth it !



Had the same problem with the water drain valve under the F. F. . Purchased a new one from Geno's, however you probably can just get the "O" rings. Are they American or metric sized ???



Peter

I do have a gauge in the cab for fuel pressure.

 

[diesel DOG]

I'll check out Geno's thanks

I see it here http://www.genosgarage.com/FLEETGUARD-FUEL-CANISTER-DRAIN-VALVE-00-02/productinfo/3959453S/ is it the same as OEM? Lever looks different. I don't want a mod party trying to get it to fit I want a direct replacement. Thanks

probably have had this problem for a while but since I drove it every day until recently is never showed up. I'll put a rag or paper towel there today to see what happens.

 

[diesel DOG]

put in new filter drain today I will see what happens now. Need new batteries. The ones in there are feb 2009 Diehard Gold. Hope to get some money back on them with prorating. Keep you posted.