Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) 2001 Transmission Automatic

[firefighter]

Has anyone tried to upgrade the 2001 automatic to the newer six speed automatic, or is this even possible?

 

[Road Dog]

The problem is the transmission control is integrated into the ECM. You'd need an aftermarket transmission controller if they exist. Another thing is there's a lot of torque management happening and I suspect the transmission isn't as strong as people think. For example, full engine power isn't available in lower gears.

 

[DACoffman]

Ive often wondered if a 48re could be put in a 99?

 

[cerberusiam]

Ive often wondered if a 48re could be put in a 99?

That is easy to do, bolts right in.



The 68RFE is another matter.

 

[Cosmo]

The 68rfe has a stand alone TCM.


Just rebuild your 47 into a 48.

From what I understand, the main difference is the number of clutches - 47 has 4:4:5:10 clutches (front:rearverdrive:direct) and the 48 has 5:4:5(6 on HO):23


Instead of having 10 frictions and 10 steels, there are 23 single-sided frictions.

 

[Cosmo]

The problem is the transmission control is integrated into the ECM. You'd need an aftermarket transmission controller if they exist. Another thing is there's a lot of torque management happening and I suspect the transmission isn't as strong as people think. For example, full engine power isn't available in lower gears.

Everyone is using torque management these days - I drove a 6. 4 (iirc) Powerstroke and it's absolutely neutered until you hit about 3rd gear.



The 68rfe is plenty strong - ~500hp/1100lb-ft and plenty of abuse didn't take mine out, it was all that power AND 4wd power-braking to build boost for a green light launch that left me needing a flatbed.



However, it wasn't a shaft, drum, piston, sprag, or any other hard part that failed - I simply melted my underdrive clutches. They liquefied. When they cooled down I could drive my truck (slowly) in Neutral.

 

[cerberusiam]

The 68rfe has a stand alone TCM.

Its not stand alone, its integrated with the ECU. Thats the big problem of getting a system that will allow installation in other vehicles. The PCM controls the trans but relies on lots of other inputs to do its job. All those have to be yanked out and a program designed to make the trans shift and react in a predictable way. Its not a simple task by any means.



Its not just the clutch counts that make a 48RE. The inut shaft is larger and stronger. The TC is beefier. The last of the aluminum planetaries has been removed. The fluid flow from the pump is higher and the lubing better, plus, the case has been strengthened in places.



All the except the case strength can and has been done for years on a premium 47RE build but thats a $5-6k option. The 48RE as is needs fewer upgrades and tweaks to perform well with moderate power increases.



On the other hand, the 48RE is out of production so its not as easy and cheap as it used to be to swap.

Everyone The 68rfe is plenty strong - ~500hp/1100lb-ft and plenty of abuse didn't take mine out, it was all that power AND 4wd power-braking to build boost for a green light launch that left me needing a flatbed.

Without major upgrades it was on borrowed time even without the brake stand. You just found the first glaring shortcoming of the 68RFE with power upgrades.



Its the same as the competitors, over managed and under clutched. Once you turn the wick up and remove the TQ management the trans is looking for an excuse to break. The TC is crap and won't take the abuse. The clutch count is too low to hold the TQ and the stock algorithms that control line pressure are not up to the task of handling the power. Once you fix one weak area the problems just move to another. The fix is still under design. As sson as one area is addressed the next just shows up. Some of the needed parts are just no available to address the problems.



At stock power and stock TQ management it is adequate and that is all. Abuse it and it will break easily.

 

[Road Dog]

I've been wondering about the gearing in the 47/48RE -- since it's a three speed with an overdrive on the end, can it be run as a six speed with the right control? Basically you're engaging the overdrive in first and second to get more gears. I don't know if the resulting ratios are useful. (The 68RFE is listed in the specs as a three speed plus overdrive to get six speeds. )

 

[cerberusiam]

I've been wondering about the gearing in the 47/48RE -- since it's a three speed with an overdrive on the end, can it be run as a six speed with the right control? Basically you're engaging the overdrive in first and second to get more gears.

The ratios are not useful and there is no way to effective mesh the hydraulic shifting and the electronic OD.



The 68RFE is a 3 pinion transmission where the 47\48 is only a 2 pinion, you need 3 pinions and full electronic control to make a 5 or 6 speed.

 

[HBarlow]

The days of backyard engineering new cars and trucks to remake them like we want them using parts from other years are just about over. Everything is computer controlled now.

 

[Cosmo]

Its not stand alone, its integrated with the ECU. Thats the big problem of getting a system that will allow installation in other vehicles. The PCM controls the trans but relies on lots of other inputs to do its job. All those have to be yanked out and a program designed to make the trans shift and react in a predictable way. Its not a simple task by any means.



Its not just the clutch counts that make a 48RE. The inut shaft is larger and stronger. The TC is beefier. The last of the aluminum planetaries has been removed. The fluid flow from the pump is higher and the lubing better, plus, the case has been strengthened in places.



All the except the case strength can and has been done for years on a premium 47RE build but thats a $5-6k option. The 48RE as is needs fewer upgrades and tweaks to perform well with moderate power increases.



On the other hand, the 48RE is out of production so its not as easy and cheap as it used to be to swap.







Without major upgrades it was on borrowed time even without the brake stand. You just found the first glaring shortcoming of the 68RFE with power upgrades.



Its the same as the competitors, over managed and under clutched. Once you turn the wick up and remove the TQ management the trans is looking for an excuse to break. The TC is crap and won't take the abuse. The clutch count is too low to hold the TQ and the stock algorithms that control line pressure are not up to the task of handling the power. Once you fix one weak area the problems just move to another. The fix is still under design. As sson as one area is addressed the next just shows up. Some of the needed parts are just no available to address the problems.



At stock power and stock TQ management it is adequate and that is all. Abuse it and it will break easily.

The ECM and TCM are not integrated into one unit as was previously stated, they're separate devices bolted to different locations.



Most of the hard part upgrades can be retrofitted to a 47, and you don't have to spend 5-6k to do it if you're doing the work yourself.



As far as the 68rfe, I still disagree. For stock to moderate power levels it's perfectly fine. I did beat the hell out of mine, 44k pound sled pulls, drag strip runs, towing a ~15k pound trailer across the country, and it showed no signs of slippage or abnormal wear when I took it apart, aside from the underdrive clutches.



Are there upgrades available now for hard parts? Yes, there are a few coming out now, however the daily-driven work truck will undoubtedly make it 150-200k miles before seeing any issues even with mild power adders. The weak link is the clutches - which are also the cheapest parts to replace - and driver abuse factors into the life of the trans far more than weak parts.



You won't get any argument from me regarding the torque converters - Dodge has used inferior parts for decades, and the current one probably isn't an exception.



Your statement that the trans is adequate only for stock power levels with stock torque management is a bit incorrect. I know of guys running the same setup as I was who tow heavy regularly but who haven't been doing brake stands or sled pulling, and who have over 100k miles on their stock trans.

 

[cerberusiam]

The ECM and TCM are not integrated into one unit as was previously stated, they're separate devices bolted to different locations.

I did not say it was integrated INTO, I said it was integrated WITH the ECU. Vast difference in the concept. The statement it is stand alone is incorrect. If it looses communication with the ECU it goes into fail mode and you are stuck with limited operation. It is wholly a subsidiary component that relies on external inputs for correct operation which I very clearly pointed out. That is not the definition of stand alone.

Your statement that the trans is adequate only for stock power levels with stock torque management is a bit incorrect.

On the other hand you have the units that have issues at stock power and with moderate upgrades. Remove the TQ management AND drive to maximize the TQ its a different story. Some have good luck, and it really seems to be operator specific, but for the most part if you try to run it stock and bag on it, be prepared to fix it.



The algorithms have gotten better every year but it is still border line at even stock power. Too many builders are telling me this to ignore it.

 

[HBarlow]

Rowdy2, a member who lives near me and drives or did drive a very highly modified ISB6. 7 truck posted a couple years ago that with added power he shredded his 68RFE very quickly.

The MOPAR six speed automatic is a great transmission with stock power. It will not stand up behind highly modified engines. I don't know if that also applies to the Aisin. Nobody has reported a modified cab and chassis with Aisin.

I haven't seen one of his posts in a year or so. Don't know if he is still a member.

 

[Cosmo]

I did not say it was integrated INTO, I said it was integrated WITH the ECU. Vast difference in the concept. The statement it is stand alone is incorrect. If it looses communication with the ECU it goes into fail mode and you are stuck with limited operation. It is wholly a subsidiary component that relies on external inputs for correct operation which I very clearly pointed out. That is not the definition of stand alone.







On the other hand you have the units that have issues at stock power and with moderate upgrades. Remove the TQ management AND drive to maximize the TQ its a different story. Some have good luck, and it really seems to be operator specific, but for the most part if you try to run it stock and bag on it, be prepared to fix it.



The algorithms have gotten better every year but it is still border line at even stock power. Too many builders are telling me this to ignore it.

The TCM receives input from the ECU - vehicle speed, calculated load, throttle position, gear range selection, (which could be more BCM type info) and it outputs other parameters. It's integration lies solely with the I/O it needs in order to properly function - figure out the pinout and the signals it needs, and yes, you can swap it fairly easily.



The VGT controller already has aftermarket support for putting that turbo (or the he451) in non-6. 7 trucks - which is integrated in much the same way - it needs minimal input from the TCM/BCM/ECM in order to function properly.



It was previously stated that the TCM was integrated INTO the ECM, which is what I was correcting. I merely used "stand alone" to reflect that it's not printed on the same circuit board as the ECM - it's mounted in its own location with its own wiring to connect it to the TCM and to the vehicle bus.



Do you always feel the need to be a total cock?



As far as longevity of the trans goes, it's always up to the driver. Like I said, I feel perfectly confident that the trans will hold up under normal driving conditions when stock, and even under mild modification power levels behind the ISB.



I also think the factory shift points on my 08 were garbage, and running a more performance oriented shift program will increase the life of the trans and torque converter. Why in god's name would Dodge program a transmission to shift into 6th gear before 50 mph? 1100 rpm doesn't provide good throttle response and the torque converter takes a major beating.



This may seem contradictory, first saying it's fine and then suggesting that it's not, but what I'm getting at is the factory program is the weakest link. Running the H&S Overdrive software made driving around town a lot more bearable and it was easier on the transmission.



I don't care what trans you put behind an engine - the right driver will be able to do something stupid enough to blow it up. There are also going to be failures due to manufacturing defects. It happens. It's not an indication that the trans isn't up to the task though.

 

[cerberusiam]

It was previously stated that the TCM was integrated INTO the ECM, which is what I was correcting.

You quoted my remarks instead of the other post about integration of ECM\TCM. Easy mistake to make.



However, if it was so easy to develop a conversion package as you suggest and just make the controller stand alone don't you think that would have been done by now? Its been 4 years since the introduction of the 68RFE and no controller suitable for a swap has yet been widely marketed. Maybe its not as "easy" as that?

This may seem contradictory, first saying it's fine and then suggesting that it's not, but what I'm getting at is the factory program is the weakest link. Running the H&S Overdrive software made driving around town a lot more bearable and it was easier on the transmission.

The statement doesn't seem contradictory, it IS contradictory. This highlights the very exception I made to your statement the stock strans is plenty strong. It also clearly demonstrates what happens if you increase the power and do not modify the trans, the added TQ will raise havoc with the trans.



Clearly adding the H&S software makes a difference, but, that is not stock is it? Whether you modify hardware or software it is still modifying the OEM setup. Now, once you modify the shifting it just puts more stress on the other parts that were not designed to handle that level of stress. Its not a matter of IF a trans with stock hardware will fail, its a mattwer of WHEN.



It would seem then that we agree the stock trans is not all that strong and will suffer even under stock power and definitely with a power upgrade.



As for being a dick, if pointing out holes in your ideas and lack of information in your descriptions qualifies as dickness, get over it. This is a discussion forum and you may or may not find everyone in agreement with your opinions and ideas. Doesn't mean your being attacked, just means you may not know all you think you know or be right in your thinking.

 

[Cosmo]

We don't agree. The stock transmission is fine for 90% of the drivers out there. Aftermarket programming will help most of the rest, however the transmission is still bone stock with aftermarket software. Again, the stock setup is perfectly fine for most reasonable people out there. There have not been hundreds or even dozens of threads here, dodgeforum, or any other dodge truck forums that I read regarding transmission failures. In fact there have been very few, and far between.

The stock shift points are set to maximize fuel economy, plain and simple. Increasing shift points doesn't put added stress on the hardware, it actually relieves stress. Lugging a trans at 900 rpm locked up in 6th gear puts a tremendous amount of stress on the torque converter and clutches that may not be getting proper line pressure due to the low RPM of the pump.

Your signature shows you have an 05 and a 92, neither of which have the transmission in question here. Do you have any experience with it, or are you just armchair quarterbacking with no real knowledge of the product?


As far as the supposed mistake with the quote, it was no mistake. I quoted your post on purpose, and clearly stated that it was previously stated that the TCM was integrated into the ECM. I didn't attribute that quote to you. Easy mistake to make.

Yes, we are 4 years into the product's life, but where is the money to be made on developing an integration module? The purchase price of the trans alone right now doesn't really make it an attractive swap option, there are built 48's that will handle the power just as well and for less money when factoring in the cost of purchase plus transmission management. When they become cheap enough, you may see someone bother with it.

 

[cerberusiam]

however the transmission is still bone stock with aftermarket software.

Seriously? Since the 68RFE is full electronic control, adding software still makes it stock?

Increasing shift points doesn't put added stress on the hardware, it actually relieves stress.

Oh sure, moving the shift points to a higher point on the TQ curve does NOT add any stress to the hard parts.

there are built 48's that will handle the power just as well and for less money when factoring in the cost of purchase plus transmission management.

Six speeds as opposed to 4, deeper 1st gear to get loads rolling, better splits on all the gears, a double OD with decent splits as opposed to a single OD with a huge jump. Nah, there is NO reason to even want such a transmission.

As far as the supposed mistake with the quote, it was no mistake. I quoted your post on purpose, and clearly stated that it was previously stated that the TCM was integrated into the ECM. I didn't attribute that quote to you. .

Ummm, when you quote somebody's post you ARE attributing the quote to them.

Your signature shows you have an 05 and a 92, neither of which have the transmission in question here. Do you have any experience with it, or are you just armchair quarterbacking with no real knowledge of the product?

And last but not least, when sounding like a donkey start with the personal attacks.



I didn't realize you were one of THEM. My bad.

 

[Road Dog]

The ratios are not useful and there is no way to effective mesh the hydraulic shifting and the electronic OD.



The 68RFE is a 3 pinion transmission where the 47\48 is only a 2 pinion, you need 3 pinions and full electronic control to make a 5 or 6 speed.

Thanks for the info. It was just a thought.

 

[Cosmo]

Seriously? Since the 68RFE is full electronic control, adding software still makes it stock?

Yes, you're not touching the transmission.

Oh sure, moving the shift points to a higher point on the TQ curve does NOT add any stress to the hard parts.

If you would listen to someone who knows what he's talking about (me) then you'd understand. Low RPM high torque tears up torque converters and clutches, like I've already explained. Raising the shift points increases line pressure which helps the clutches engage better and it helps the torque converter lock up.

Six speeds as opposed to 4, deeper 1st gear to get loads rolling, better splits on all the gears, a double OD with decent splits as opposed to a single OD with a huge jump. Nah, there is NO reason to even want such a transmission.

There are advantages, but again the cost involved keeps most people from bothering. If more people were actually interested, there would be more than one thread a year here and other places...

Ummm, when you quote somebody's post you ARE attributing the quote to them.

Christ almighty you're dense. "AS PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED" doesn't mean "AS YOU PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED".



I never said YOU said it. I quoted your post because I was responding to other points in it.



I'm sorry I wasn't aware that I'm not allowed to quote your post and then reference someone else's post without directly quoting it. From now on I'll try to draw you a map so you don't get confused again.

And last but not least, when sounding like a donkey start with the personal attacks.



I didn't realize you were one of THEM. My bad.

That's not a personal attack, it's a question. Do you have ANY experience with the 68rfe, or are you just spitting out speculation based upon what you've heard either on the internet?





I happen to own one, mildly modified, AND I've personally torn it down (twice) and rebuilt it. The first time was due to me screwing around, the 2nd time was because my Suncoast TCM was overwritten accidentally and I didn't realize how quickly the overdrive clutches would disappear with incorrect programming.

 

[cerberusiam]

Yes, you're not touching the transmission.

Word up and listen, the transmission is ELECTRONICALLY controlled. When you modify the program it is NOT STOCK anymore. Period. End of story.



The transmission is under clutched and over managed to be able to perform to MTBF, which is relatively low anyway. Its called planned obsolesence by the auto makers. Once you change ANYTHING all bets are off.



You claim the trans is strong stock but you have managed to tear it up multiple times with little effort. Your experiences directly contradict your opinion yet you keep making excuses.



I am done trying to point out the fallacy of your arguments. You don't want to hear it and will just have to learn it the hard way. Happy holidays.