2013 Ram, high hours idling

[RamDriver]

I bought a used 2013 Ram 2500 SLT CC Long bed 6.7L Cummins diesel, 68rfe automatic, a couple weeks ago. AFTER I bought it, I found out it had 1,084 idling hours, in addition to the 1,176 hours driving only 20,109 miles. I was more than a little upset to find that my dealer sold me a slope truck. That is to say, those thousand hours idling were in super cold temps, down to -50 F, on Alaska's North slope oil fields. The owners guide clearly tells us not to idle our trucks, but I don't have a choice left in the matter, so I thought I'd start a thread to share info on these pickups with high idling hours. On my way home after buying it, I got a check engine light, with the message "service def see dealer". Back at the dealership, they did nothing but reset the light, and it's stayed off since then, almost two weeks and 700 miles ago. I think some soot broke loose and the def couldn't make up for it, since I was loading it up, spooling the turbo, and actually driving it like I owned it. I don't plan on doing the deletes, since I'm a rule follower, plus I plan on selling it sooner than I originally intended, because of its earlier history. The oil is pretty dark. I'll change it early, the first time, and always use synthetic. So far, the one bad thing I have to say about the truck itself, is that the exhaust brake really disappoints me. It's not broken, but rather seems to be programming issues, with the torque converter unlocking.

 

[RamDriver]

In light of my experience, I strongly recommend that potential buyers check the hours on these trucks before they buy. Nice of Ram to have an electronic hour meter on the dash. If I'd only known to cycle through all the menu options, I would have seen the ridiculously high idle time.

 

[Cummins12V98]

Tow Haul and Exhaust Brake ON ALL THE TIME.

 

[DonFitzwater]

Ramdriver, where are you located? You should fill out your signature. I wouldn't worry about the idling time as mine had similar hours/mileage when I sold it and no worse for the wear.

Don't panic over the dark oil either. It's just the way the oil looks almost immediately after changing on newer Cummins. Pilot injection, high EGR etc all lead to dark or soot black oils.

The "service def" warning will come on periodically, especially if it's damn cold. Don't worry about it, it still runs fine.

 

[RamDriver]

Don, I'm in Anchor Point, Alaska. Farthest West you can go on the highway system. Good to hear you reaffirm what I thought about the pickup. Mine does run good too, but I wonder if I'll have issues with the emissions controls further down the road, because of the idling. I understand that the dark oil is a factor in these models, due to the egr, but if Cummins thinks they're still good for 15k mile oil change intervals, that says a lot. I'm a believer in using synthetic oil in turbocharged engines, and I only ever put synthetic oil in my '02. It's not a big deal, as long as you idle down the motor after running the turbo hot. If you shut the engine off with a hot turbo, the oil burns in the turbo bearing. Idling before shutoff cools the bearing with oil running through it. When it burns, petroleum oil makes coke, which is like sand in your engine, but synthetic turns to a fine ash, which is soluble in oil, so it doesn't cause much damage.
On my exhaust brake, I don't think it's just transmission programming, but also ecm, but it is just silly how much it doesn't work. On the highway, going 55, it will come on, then go off at 52... Yes, tow mode helps. But, going downhill at 35, the engine will hold 1,200 rpm until I turn on the exhaust brake, then the transmission upshifts. I actually get better compression braking with the exhaust brake off. If I run up to 70 mph and let off, the exhaust brake holds until 40, then nothing. Again, tow mode keeps it on longer, but never lower than 30 mph, with manual shift down to 3. Dowhill in regular mode, it acts like auto mode, cutting in and out lightly, holding me at 53. Auto mode won't work on a long, local 45 mph downhill, unless I manually downshift to 5, or get on the throttle to make it downshift and lock up the tc.
Has anyone tried the ATS CO-PILOT? I don't want to mess with the ecm and programmers, but I wondered if the co-pilot, with its ability to manage shifts and lock the torque converter, might make the exhaust brake work like it should.

 

[Newsa]

With alot of idling, the oil should be changed quicker than 15,000 miles. Idle accrues hours without miles

 

[Newsa]

I think Ram should have said "change the oil every 15,000 miles or 500 hours

 

[Bruce Beard]

I think Ram should have said "change the oil every 15,000 miles or 500 hours

The supplemental diesel manual for 2016 says exactly that.

 

[Powder Extreme]

The initial programming of the exhaust brake on the 13 and 14 68rfe trucks really was stupid. I have a post around here about how poorly my '14 worked. After one of the reflashes, sorry don't recall which one, it started working considerably better. Before you start spending money on programmers and such, I'd have the truck flashed to the latest updates and see if you're happier.

 

[Newsa]

The supplemental diesel manual for 2016 says exactly that.

I don’t see anything about 500 hour oil changes in the 2013 diesel supplement.

But there is a spec about 6 months/15,000 mile changes with petro diesel. And 12,500 mile changes with B20.

I think ths EVIC reminder is supposed to account for engjne hours in its programming, tho

 

[RamDriver]

Thanks, Powder X, for the info on the flash. I suspected there should be a better factory program. Hopefully, the dealer can do that for me. I'm actually sitting in their waiting area right now, waiting for them to finish up changing tires, checking tpms, and the check engine light, which lit up on the way here. Unfortunately, I was told that they only have service guys here today, so I have to wait on the flash. Too bad, because I really want the exhaust brake to work like it's supposed to, and the dealship is over 200 miles from home. I didn't get a message with the engine light, like last time, so I still don't know for sure what that was about. It is the second time it's come on in the two weeks since I bought the truck.
Comparing this 2013 to my '02, mileage for my normal driving was worse in the new truck, but the old one was a manual six speed, not an auto. The '02 usually averaged 18.5, with a worst of 16.5, and best of 21+. Filling up after a full tank of normal, light load driving, the '13 got 15.8, which disappointed me a little, but on the drive to Anchorage, 225 miles burned 11.05 gallons. 20 mpg hwy. We're on less-dense winter fuel, too, so I'm happy with that. Oh, and the '02 had one check engine light in five years. The ecm went out (caused by the programmer), and that was the only trouble light I had in it.

 

[DonFitzwater]

Unfortunately, exhaust trouble codes seem to be the norm. My 2014 popped plenty but never had any running problems. Its not like Ram are the only folks with exhaust related issues. My Ford 6.7 had real problems not to mention lots of def codes and recalls.

Any P20EE codes on yours?

 

[RamDriver]

The code I got last time was P207F. I haven't heard what this one is, yet. I'm not thrilled with all the yellow lights on the dash. Last night, I had tc off, eb on, tpms has been on, and I barely noticed the check engine light in that sea of yellow.
Thinking more about the mileage, I never really considered expansion, but you normally allow 10% when you fill a tank or barrel. How much does diesel expand when it's hot? 10%? 5%? If it expands 5%, the 20 gallons left in my tank when I refilled would have made an extra gallon. With the fuel recirculating from the tank and through the fuel system, the tank would have been full of warm fuel when I refilled. When I got the lower mileage, before the long drive, the tank was nearly empty, so it would be less of an issue, a tenth if a gallon, maybe. But, if the fuel does expand 5% with that temp difference, the actual mileage would be around 18.75. Still good for a vehicle of this caliber.

 

[Bruce Beard]

I don’t see anything about 500 hour oil changes in the 2013 diesel supplement.

But there is a spec about 6 months/15,000 mile changes with petro diesel. And 12,500 mile changes with B20.

I think ths EVIC reminder is supposed to account for engjne hours in its programming, tho

I've been reading the 2016 Diesel engine supplement (we pick up mine next Thursday!) and that is where I saw it...

 

[RamDriver]

That's it. I thought I had seen that, when I read the discussion about it. I'll hope that the leasing company was good about the oil changes.
So, four hours at Lithia Dodge to get new tires on the front and replace tpms sensors. And the 400+ mile drive and overnight stay. They left the P20EE code, and said I have to talk to the warranty guy on Monday... Very unhappy. I guess I'll drive home with the light on. They might have a local shop do the work, since I live over 60 miles from any dealership. I hope they do, and fix it promptly and permanently. If they don't, there's a good case to sue.

 

[Newsa]

I've been reading the 2016 Diesel engine supplement (we pick up mine next Thursday!) and that is where I saw it...

I actually wasn't doubting the truth of what you said. I was just commenting that that was not in the diesel supplement a few years ago. I hadn't read it anywhere, but thought it should be somewhere between 300 & 500 hours

 

[Bruce Beard]

Don't threaten to "sue" until you have exhausted all other avenues. Once a dealer hears that language they will stop trying to help at all...
Just sayin...

 

[RamDriver]

No, I'm not one to sue, anyway, but I just don't threaten. Honestly, I've kind of liked this dealership, and I'd like to have a decent relationship with them. It's just that if there are problems with the truck, and they do nothing, then that would be appropriate. Based on past experiences, I draw a hard line on people owning up to their responsibilities.
Anyway, now it has the P20EE code, and I drove all the way home with the check engine light on. The salesman, sales manager, and service writer all said the same things, to the effect that these trucks always throw codes, but that's just not okay with me. I didn't pay forty grand to drive around with the check engine light on in a truck that might leave me stranded, or limited to 5mph. Whether it's Ram, who made it, the dealer that bought it from a slope auction and resold it, or the EPA, which mandated the regulations that necessitated the problem-causing components, someone bears the responsibility for the reliability of these trucks, or rather, the problems that they have. I shouldn't have to spend thousands of dollars and break the law, to delete emissions components, so the truck will run right. Noted, it's not running badly, but the cel is on for the second time in two weeks of ownership, in just over a thousand miles. I do suspect that the high idle time contributes to problems with the emission controls.

 

[RamDriver]

Let me back up a little. I really like this pickup. I'm not a loyalist, buying by brand, but I've liked the Cummins since my dad put a 6BT in his boat, a couple years after Dodge first put them in their Ram pickups. My '02 was my dream truck, as a kid. 2nd gen, 24v HO, 6 speed. Here in Alaska, you hardly see a 2wd. My pickups are 4x's. The old one had 160k on it, and I traded it in, for a loss, on this 2013, that, incidentally, was the same color and everything, minus eleven years and a real transmission. I wasn't real happy with the deal I got, but my '02's steering box went out while I was in the city, far from home, and my wife, the best woman I know, said "Buy another truck." Who can argue with that? So, I found that it has low mileage, but high hours. High hours at low temps, in the hands of slope workers, notorious for pickup abuses. I take some solace in the fact that it's an SLT, and hope that it was driven by a supervisor, whom I hope took better care of his rig than the roughnecks. That's my issue with the dealer. They were okay to deal with, other than this issue with the tires, that they did take care of, to my satisfaction.
I don't mean to get off topic, and I didn't start this thread to complain. But, realizing that I bought a pickup that already had idled excessively, I want to keep on that subject. What's a problem, what's not. On the bright side of driving 21,000 miles in 2,300 hours, the brakes are like new.
If anyone has a solution that legally fixes these issues with the p207F and P20EE codes, I'd like to know about it. Reading other forums, I see that some people had success with cleaning the DEF injector (it should just be referred to as "EF", since there's no diesel in it) and "decomposition tube", which I'll want to research more. I mentioned this to the service writer, and he said "There's a cleaning procedure" that they can do, but... I have to wait the weekend, call the warranty guy on Monday, and drive a few hundred miles for them to fix it. In a way, I want them to fix it, themselves, and see what happened, and use that knowledge for all of our good, but that's a long shot, and it's a long drive to take it to them. I really want to see in the preheat grid and intake, along with the exhaust, and see what all of that looks like, with nearly 1,100 hours idling, plus 20k miles at under 20 mph average.

 

[gsbrockman]

Honestly, I've kind of liked this dealership, and I'd like to have a decent relationship with them. It's just that if there are problems with the truck, and they do nothing, then that would be appropriate. Based on past experiences, I draw a hard line on people owning up to their responsibilities.
Anyway, now it has the P20EE code.....

I belong to several different RAM / Cummins diesel truck sites.
I can share with you my following observations:

• 2013 pickups are more problematic in regards to the P20EE code.
• FCA will insist on more than one "reflash" to loosen the constraints which will cause a CEL to illuminate, therefore requiring less warranty $$$'s.
• NoX sensors are cheaper than SCR's. They'll generally give one of them a try before replacing the SCR.
• Lots of dealers will insist there's a DEF quality issue.....some will even say that you MUST use MOPAR branded DEF.....and it's not covered under warranty.
• You'll most likely need a new SCR. As a rule, SCR's will fix the P20EE code a verrrrrry large percentage of the time.

Good luck getting your truck back in like new condition. Not all RAM / Cummins pickups are problem children. I'm at 138,339 miles, 215 idle hours, and 2,583 drive hours with ZERO CEL's.