24valve Performance Options

[MDonat]

I'm currently running my 2nd CTB but am really new to the register... I used to own a 99 24 valve 5-spd and upgraded it with Banks Phase II kit. It worked pretty swell for the time I used the truck, but my mileage was kind of crappy (~17-18mpg empty)



I now own an '01 24valve 6-spd and upgraded it with a Dr. Performance pack. It works as good if not a little better than the Banks kit (When I bought the truck, Banks did not have a kit available for '01).



My big question is,



based on numbers, what are some of the better systems out there? I've heard people flame Banks, and I've heard 'em flame Dr. Performance... I know there are other after market products, but it sounds like Banks and Performance are willing to defend the warranties better. Is this true or not?

 

[TomGolden]

Welcome to the TDR



This is one of those loaded questions, like which oil or filters should I use... that will likely generate many answers and many suggestions to do various searches in past TDR threads.



I think the resounding agreement will be that the best performance gains are found with combinations of different products, as opposed to any one vendors "kits".



I have no personal experience with either Banks or Dr. Performance products, but from talking with many TDR members over the past year, and seeing trucks perform in pulls, etc. , I have come to the above conclusion. See my . sig in my post for my combination of goodies. I have not yet had my truck dynoed, but I'm certain I am putting between 350 - 400 HP to the ground with my mods. Just for reference, all the performance mods, meaning NOT the gauges, bed liner, nerf bars and the like, I estimate I have about $4000 into the truck to date.



Enjoy your truck and the TDR.



Tom

 

[NJohnson]

I'm new as an actual member of TDR but I've enjoyed following the discussion boards for quite some time. When it comes to increasing power in the Dodge Cummins, one could easily get lost in the din from the number of companies eager to sell their approach. I pull a reasonably heavy trailer and needed more power for hill climbing. All of the companies I approached for info seemed to only offer one or more mechanisms by which I could dump more fuel into the engine. I'm not a diesel mechanic but I believe that common sense dictates that more fuel by itself is going to make more heat. After thoroughly evaluating my options, I settled on the Banks Powerpack and it's the best money I've ever spent on a vehicle. The Banks system was the ONLY one I found that offered a complete balanced approach. The Powerpack is designed to work as a system, leaving no need for guesswork. It truly offers a tremendous improvement in air flow management... Not just tons more fuel. I've read the criticism on these boards about how the Banks system costs a bit more than some of the other options. The Powerpack is not inexpensive but what you'll find is that it costs just as much if not more to piece together a "grab bag" system involving parts from many different companies. One has to wonder... will mixing products together produce the best result? Will these components really ever work together? Of course not. My advice to anyone looking to upgrade their truck would be to stay away from any company that wants to sell you a device that blindly overfuels the engine. Of course, everything we do in life comes down to motive. If you're only interested in hot rodding as some TDR members seem to be, then by all means combine everything out there and enjoy! Trouble is that your enjoyment may be short lived. The steroid approach gives you the results but it may also leave you with no truck. For the rest of us who take pride in our trucks and respect the financial investment we have in them, THERE IS A BETTER WAY. Thanks Banks.

Naiven
 

 

[Sky]

IMO you can put a system together better than banks for half the cost. What do you think banks did? They put together a system and called it the "power pack" or a "git kit" or what ever. You can buy boxes where you choose the amount of fuel to add buy a push of a button. Do your research and just ask alot of questions. Thats what I did and Im very happy!



Ps. Dont be fooled by banks telling you that there system will not void your warranty, becuase in most cases it will.

 

[Okie-Go]

An edge ez and a set of 275 injectors will probably do what you want it to, and then some.

 

[KatDiesel]

Originally posted by NJohnson

The Powerpack is not inexpensive but what you'll find is that it costs just as much if not more to piece together a "grab bag" system involving parts from many different companies. One has to wonder... will mixing products together produce the best result? Will these components really ever work together? Of course not.

Wanna bet? DDII's + EZ box = roughly 300hp (PowerPack about 290) and on an HX35 w/12cm² housing you shouldn't have any EGT problems at all. These can be had for under $1000 so you can then get your choice of gauges, not the two your forced to get with the Banks system. Not to mention you do not touch the injection pump wire at all!! The Ottomind taps into the injection pump wire right?. If your Banks system works for you then great, but please refrain from giving misleading information that its the "best" way to do it. If can be done cheaper if you know how to use your resources. While it may be the best way in your eyes, it may not be the best way in others eyes. My issue with Banks was their customer service (lack of), that issue has been put to rest with me, I actually oredered a High Ram because of it. Will I recommend everyone buy Banks systems? No I will not, I will present options to people to educate them and let them decide. Edge, TST, Diesel Dynamics, BlueChip, JRE, Genos, DTT, Goerend, autometer, Practical solutions(and any others I am forgeting I apologize) all are excellant companies and provide excellant customer service. I have dealt with all of these people in one way or another and say you can't go wrong with any of them, i didn't coment on any companies I haven't dealt with. My opinions and thoughts are based on each personal experience with them, whether its via in person, on phone, or through email.



Information is a powerful thing... ... thats why its important people know that their are options availabe if so desired.

 

[Murle]

Very well put , Kat. Could not have said it better.

 

[DarrellB]

What About TST

Don't forget about TST, they have a great fueling box for the 24valvers. It comes in 3 diffrent levels and with the PMax3 you can get it ajustable or ajustable with gauges(EGT and boost gauges) They have exelant service and tech help if you have any questions. The fueling boxes they sale are also programed to give the right mixture of fuel and air resulting in less smoke than most.



I have the PMax 2 and 275s and love it perfect for towing



These people know what they're doing

 

[MUDDY]

imo, banks and dr p are severely over priced.



at the time, i had a mopar uprate ecm, which is also a bad $ value, and 275s which are great.

this setup is supposed to add approximately 120 lb ft of trq.



i was talked into trying the dr p phase 2 which is advertised to add 200 lb ft trq. they bought my old system back from me and installed the dr p stuff.

i lost 7 mph on the test hill and my egts went up from my previous system 50 degrees, where the egts were advertised to not go up from stock.



their claims were false and the system was overpriced.



the shop gave me my old stuff back and put it back in for me and kept the dr p stuff. very nice people at that shop.



wish i knew then what i know now. these rigs bomb inexpensively and bomb efficiently.



i now run the diablo power puck with the 275s, ps boost module/elbow, and of course my air mods and 4 inch straight pipe. my uprate ecm is still on there too, along with my propane.



of course my gauges were the first mod.



i am very happy with the way the rig runs with these mods and they are done cheap.



an ez and 275s for example are cheap low egt power.

imo skip banks for the money and tell dr p toget lost.







mm

 

[KatDiesel]

Re: What About TST

Originally posted by DarrellB

Don't forget about TST, they have a great fueling box for the 24valvers.

While I don't have a PowerMax³ (Edge is my poison of choice), you will see in most of my "posts" I mention TST and Bluechip along side of Edge for fueling boxes. You'll see I mentioned in my above post. There are "major" fueling boxes, such as PowerEdge, PE COMP, PowerMax³, BlueBox, they all do what they say they will. I would have no problems with choosing either of the other products if for some reason I dropped my Edge. Then their are "minor" fueling boxes such as EZ, VA, Puck. The boxes are two different classes because one taps the wire, and the others don't, thats the best way to classify them seperatly. I chose to post about the DDII's + EZ combo because that will be low EGTs as well as low cost. Me personally I have DDIII's + PE COMP and a few other lil things.

 

[NJohnson]

Katdiesel... thanks for the advice. I'll be extra careful in the future to keep my opinions to myself so as not to offend you. Please. I'll offer my opinion on what I think is best just as you offer yours. The members of TDR who choose to read these threads can either take our experiences and learn from them or throw them right out the window. Either way, I'm entitled to relay my good experience with the Banks Powerpack. If you're happy with your mix of brand X then I'm happy for you. I was simply suggesting that rather than engage in "back yard engineering" with a very expensive truck, it might be wiser to go with a balanced system approach. "You get what you pay for"... . ever heard that? Truer words were never spoken. Oh and by the way Kat. . you can quote me on that one.


Naiven

 

[KatDiesel]

Originally posted by NJohnson

Katdiesel... thanks for the advice. I'll be extra careful in the future to keep my opinions to myself so as not to offend you. Please. I'll offer my opinion on what I think is best just as you offer yours. The members of TDR who choose to read these threads can either take our experiences and learn from them or throw them right out the window. Either way, I'm entitled to relay my good experience with the Banks Powerpack. If you're happy with your mix of brand X then I'm happy for you. I was simply suggesting that rather than engage in "back yard engineering" with a very expensive truck, it might be wiser to go with a balanced system approach. "You get what you pay for"... . ever heard that? Truer words were never spoken. Oh and by the way Kat. . you can quote me on that one.

Maybe you oughta reread my post. If you think you offended me, then you are mistaken. I clearly stated if Banks works for you then great. But guess ya conviently overlooked that line? Funny thing is , I have said that from day one. Feel free to search on any of my Banks related posts. I never said which way was "best" I merely said their are options period. I just allow all the info to be laid out on the table, then the end user decides which is best for them. You said it couldn't be done cheaper for the same thing (price, power, and safely), I did disagree with that and presented an alternative, is it best? Depends on the end user, but it is a viable alternative. And where in my post did I seem offended? I love a good argument, so by all means keep posting. Oh and this "backyard engineering" you call it, how can that be true when one of the owners of the previously mentioned companies is a retired Cummins engineer, and worked on the development of the VP44???? (I believe it was 20+ years he was with Cummins), sure is one heckuva nice backyard.



And yes you get what you pay for, I know exactly what I have paid for, and would gladly do it again. Thanks for the chuckle, I needed it.

 

[WOWZY]

Kat, I love how the Pro Banks newbies come in here and start defending it. I guess they get PO'd when they realize how much money they spent for the Banks kits and how little HP it provides after they read the posts of people who bought the "Backyard" products and how much more HP they're getting.



Personally, 2 of my friends are trying to unload their Banks kits as we speak so they can keep up with me and yes I have dusted the pants off of both of them with just the HotPE. $500 HotPE vs. $2000 for Banks. I'm glad I payed attention in math class when I was in school.



On second thought I take that back. If it wasn't for the TDR, I would've probably bought the Banks system also.

 

[MoparToYou]

Now kids, let's not fight ...



When I read Naiven's response, for some reason I didn't get the impression that he was "giving misleading information that its [Banks] the "best" way to do it". He just sounded like a happy customer that found what he wanted with a company and product. Maybe we're all a little too jumpy about this topic. And certainly there is more than one BEST way to do it, because what is best for one person isn't necessarily best for the next person.



Anyway, I just wanted to add something for the person that started this thread. And that is, that there is some risk with the "BOMB" approach, no matter which product you use. Case in point: I'm at my local dealer yesterday checking out my '02 3500 4x4 that just rolled off the transport truck, and I notice a beautiful red quad cab short bed 2001. 5 Cummins diesel of another customer that is sitting in the dealerships service dept. It was hard to miss because it had at least 9" of lift and 38" tires on it. I asked what was wrong with the truck, and the service manager told me "his aftermarket fuel module just fried the entire engine electronics system, the whole system is junk now". I walked over and looked the truck over, and asked the mechanic which system the owner had been using. On his work bench he showed me the PMax3 module he had removed. Being as I am considering BOMBing my new ETH/DEE 3500 this made me do the routine. None of the work on that truck is going to be covered under warranty.



So choose wisely Grasshopper. And if you cannot afford to be your own warranty provider, perhaps you shouldn't be choosing at all. Just food for thought.



MoparToYou.

 

[KatDiesel]

Originally posted by MoparToYou

I asked what was wrong with the truck, and the service manager told me "his aftermarket fuel module just fried the entire engine electronics system, the whole system is junk now". I walked over and looked the truck over, and asked the mechanic which system the owner had been using. On his work bench he showed me the PMax3 module he had removed.

And you actually believe that is the true cause? That statment is a lil too vague, as far as the "Whole electronics system". I would like to know how it happened? Yes the fueling boxes will make a "weak" VP44 show itself quicker, but other then that it should be fine. Do you know if the guy has contacted TST on the matter yet?



Alot of time dealers will see a box (the like to call them chips) and immediatly jump to conclusions, case in point. A member here in Omaha, changed his fuel filter and then could not get his truck to run. The dealership saw his PE box, and concluded he needed a new injection pump due to his "chip". They were ready to charge him around $4,000. Well before he let them do the work, he took it to Cummins and they diagnosed it as being a lil air in the lines, bled the air out of his fuel system and his truck runs fine now. So there is another "real life" story to add to the mix. I would be skeptical until they provided proof thats what happend.



But yes anytime you play with the hp then you risk the chance of having to "pay" for something breaking. Like I said twice now, once all the info is out on the table then the end user can decide which is best for them, the important thing is to provide all the information available.

 

[MDonat]

I went with Banks on the old '99 for mainly 2 reasons...

a. ) It was advertised well through several sportsmans shows

b. ) Naivety



I do admit, that although I found out the hard-way that this setup did not make me completely happy is did do as advertised.



Now on the '01 (I guess I get a little smarter with each truck) I went with Dr. Performance for 3 reasons...

a. ) It promised better performance at a lesser price than banks

b. ) convenience of the work being done right at truck purchase (Dave Smith Motors Kellogg Idaho [great people])

c. )The system setup sounded way better with the additional material (naive again maybe??)



The important thing in both of these is my dependence (reliance?) on keeping my warrantee solid with dodge...



Right now on the 01 I am right 300hp and pushing 700# of torque, while running right at 21 mpg empty and 17-18 mpg full. This end point pleases me the most, since I frequently tow 8000-9000 boats around. (like every weekend!!)



My only concern is the lack of gauges for EGT, etc... I guess this discussion is interesting depending on what you want to do...



tow or race...



Honestly I'm looking for towing performance over racing.



many thanx



Mike

 

[Floor It]

I don't belive the TST box did that, maybe if it was wired wrong- grounding something out- might cause it but not the box or fueling system would cause that.

 

[Sky]

Good to see your happy Mike. I would get some guages for sure with the more HP.

 

[MoparToYou]

KatDiesel,

being as it was a dealership service manager I was talking to, I'm sure that he had absolutely no idea what had caused the engine management computer to fail. I don't even know if it was the Dodge computer or the Cummins computer myself. I do know that the truck owner had to pay for the repair out of his pocket, although I haven't talked to him personally, and can't say whether he has called TST or not.



So did the TST module cause the failure of his engine management computer? Who knows. I suppose he could hire a lawyer and force the Dodge dealership to prove that the TST module caused the problem. Of course that would take years of time, thousands of dollars to the lawyer, and likely get him nothing in the end anyway.



Floor It,

It doesn't matter if we think the TST module did the damage or not. If the service manager deciding your warranty's fate thinks it did, then, well, ... good luck getting it covered under warranty.



Personally I don't know why the truck owner would have taken it to the dealer with the TST module still in there in the first place.



MoparToYou

 

[DarrellB]

MoparToYou stated a very good thing to practice, if you go to the dealer or to Cummins take the fueling boxes off. I took mine to Cummins of Cumberland and told the guy it had a fueking box and he told me to take it off before they worked on it. Very nice guy to gave me a hand and let me use some tools to take it off in the parking lot.



As for that Pmax3 causing the computer to fry I don't think it would because it has an inline fuse in case of grounding or being installed improperly.



If you guys ever have any problems with anything TST sales give them a call most of it has a warranty and they will do everything they can to help you. Everyone that works there is very helpful and Mark Chaple is the best one of them all.



Thats my 2cents worth.



Later

BIg D