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305 vs CAT 325

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Ok gang, curious on what the difference is with a 2003 non CAT clean engine, or a new 2004. 5 CAT engine.



I see that there is 20HP more, and we are 555 at 1,600 compared to (I believe I saw like , 2,900RPM to get the HP)



I think we are better off with the non CAT?



Opinions welcome!



Hunter1
 
A lot of folks are 'hyped' about the new 325/600. What it boils down to is this: an air intake and 4" exhaust on a 305/555 motor will nearly bring it to the numbers of the new '600'.

And all in all... the folks who just got the 600's or are scrambling to find one will be all upset again when they up the numbers in 6 mos or a year... . and it will happen.

Sure... it'd be nice to be able to afford to go UPSIDEDOWN everytime a new vehicle cam eout ... trade in every 2 years or so... but it's not practical.



Sure... I'll admit I;d love to have the '600' BUT I am in NO rush whatsoever to get rid of my HO '04 and am not disappointed in the least.

... . flame away.
 
per pickuptruck.com review of the 600 here are the changes between the 305 and 325



*snip*

• Air inlet redesigned to block hot engine air from entering, reducing the intake charge by 30 to 40 degrees.

• Intake resonator re-engineered for increased airflow

• Larger compressor on Holset turbocharger

• Engine cooling improved with new fan assembly and mounting fan shroud to engine for more efficient airflow through radiator

• Upgraded intercooler

• Upgraded exhaust valves

• Tailpipe increased to 4-inch diameter

• Improved sealing and gasket materials

• Oil-change intervals are now 15,000 miles (vs. 7,500 for competition).

• Holset turbocharger gets bigger compression side

• Switch to electronic control of wastegate

• Upgrades to exhaust manifold

• Revised intake ports in cylinder head

• New piston bowl geometry

• Different spray pattern from injectors



*snip*
 
While the change from the 03/04 to the 04. 5 wasn't all that big of a deal, the change from my 01 HO to an 04. 5 was too much to pass up. I gained 80 HP and a better warranty. I think the 4" exhaust alone is worth about $500 aftermarket. New one sure is quiet. :)
 
Originally posted by XJSuperman

A lot of folks are 'hyped' about the new 325/600. What it boils down to is this: an air intake and 4" exhaust on a 305/555 motor will nearly bring it to the numbers of the new '600'.

And all in all... the folks who just got the 600's or are scrambling to find one will be all upset again when they up the numbers in 6 mos or a year... . and it will happen.

Sure... it'd be nice to be able to afford to go UPSIDEDOWN everytime a new vehicle cam eout ... trade in every 2 years or so... but it's not practical.



Sure... I'll admit I;d love to have the '600' BUT I am in NO rush whatsoever to get rid of my HO '04 and am not disappointed in the least.

... . flame away.



No flame here:) . I agree with you, it is impossible to keep up with the constantly changing technology, you just have to ask yourself if the product is doing what you want it to do, if it is you have to be content or go crazy or broke or both.



Dean
 
I was concerned that I would not be able to find a 305/555 truck when I finally became able to buy. I wanted to compare both before I bought. I'm sure I would have been very satisfied with the 325/600 but I decided to go with the 305/555 because I think it will be a little easier to hop up. Time will tell on that one though. I figure the 305/555 with a banks exhaust, better air intake/filter, and a TAG will be PLENTY satisfying. ;)
 
I have faith that the 325/600 will continue the tradition of Cummins excellence. My congratulations to those who have purchased these trucks. I am especially happy that I don't have to listen to Brand X owners telling me that thier engines are more powerful than the Ram/Cummins.

As far as engine improvements go, it seems to me that the bulk of the changes were to improve airflow and lower EGT's. Some of these improvements would be required to deal with the increased exhaust restriction from the CAT. Some may have been added due to the small performance boost. In either case, the changes are not extreme from where I sit. I purposely chose to buy a pre-January '04 truck to avoid the necessary pollution control equipment required. When I made this decision, I felt that it was likely that some form of cooled EGR would be required. It turned out that this didn't happen and to me the CAT isn't nearly as bad as EGR. My hats off to Cummins engineering for being able to meet the new requirements without EGR, the others couldn't do it.

Would I trade my truck straight across for a new 600? No doubt. Would I consider trading my truck in on a new 600? Not a chance.

For those bent on modifying thier trucks, the 305/555 may have some regulatory advantages, but I intend on keeping mine stock until the bulk of the warranty is up.

For those of us with '03 and '04 HO's, I don't think the 600 offers enough to justify trading. For those with 2nd gens, and non-HO's, I think you'd be very happy with the difference.



My 2 cents.



Dave
 
I agree! Hats off for the 325/600 but I just preferred the somewhat simpler setup of the 305/555 myself. I think anyone who had both available (the 305/555's are going fast) would certainly not be disappointed. These things are impressive enough stock!
 
I can't believe the 2004. 5 CATS are not responding!



I thought they would be beating their chests like us 305 guys were doing just prior to the 3rd Gen coming out!



Are they not as good as one might imagine?



Hunter1
 
Had a 2004. 5 on order and canceled it. That's right folks,

I don't want the 2004. 5. You can keep the extra 20HP, and the extra fueling event, along with the cat, electronic controlled turbo waste gate and additional 100+ vehicle contolled computer inputs. Oh, let's not forget the "new" improved turbo-diesel sound. The one that makes your $40,000 rig sound like a typical gasser. Kinda like buying a Harley and sticking with the factory exhaust, YEAH- RIGHT!!! No way, give me less HP and the ability to add my own performance enhancements at will... ... .

Tman :cool:
 
somtimes you have to go with the flow.

roll with the punches.

swim with the tide.....

all i'm saying is if cummins can produce a superior engine for 15 years now the new 600 is just as good as it predissors, if not better. none of us want more equiptment on or motors(if we did we'd probally be driving a ford or chevy)but let's face the facts: it's only going to get worse as far as emissions equiptment. at least cummins and dodge have approached the emissions issue before the are forced to change. the other two look like they are waiting till the last minute IMO will only hurt their costumers. their prices will probally go up quite a bit to cover the added equiptment and their output numbers will probally drop compaired to cummins numbers that were more then the earlier non-emissions engine:D i'm waiting for my new 600. i've been driving a second gen for 5 years now and cant wait for a powerful, quieter truck!
 
OK Hunter1, I for one an responding.



I am new to Dodge/Cummins-but have wanted one since the mid nineties, but not until TT purchase last spring could I justify one. I don't have any experience with the pre 2004½ trucks, except to know I liked the Cummins better than the Ford (always thought the Chevy's were junk-I remember when the 6. 2 was new and I worked in a NAPA store and the local fire chief kept having to replace his "expensive spark plugs")



I don't really like all these electronic controls either, because down the road it leads to $$$ repairs, however it seems that they (automakers in general) have been making the electronic stuff better, more reliable, etc. I see the benefit of a 12 valve all mechanical engine with either a 727 or a good manual-but I like the quieter & less smoky 2003 up engines better-with a good level of stock power.



Tman-It DOES NOT sound like a gasser at all. Just a quieter diesel.
 
I guess I will chime in too...



The owner of the new 600's don't have a whole lot to say just YET. Most of the trucks are barely 1 week old if that. We have not had enough time in the truck to rant-n-rave. I myself went from an 02 to the 04. 5. I'm very pleased and the more I drive it, the more I love it. I was ready to buy an 04, but when I heard the 600 was coming out -- I waited for it-- why not? I still got the $3000 rebate off of invoice.



My buddy has an 03 "555" and is very satisfied with his truck. He can tell the difference in power and quietness 03 vs 04. 5. His only complaint is that the jac brake is not approved for his unit.



These days diesels are almost like PC's -- there is a newer-faster-more-powerful-one right around the corner.
 
re: pickuptruck.com review posted earlier. Here are my views, reflective of one who intends to power bomb from low to progressively higher levels with a target of approximately 400 RWHP.



• Air inlet redesigned to block hot engine air from entering, reducing the intake charge by 30 to 40 degrees.



Scotty air fixes this anyway, and the Proguard 7 or DD approach will also be very effective in this regard. Bombers will change the intake system anyway, so no envy here.



• Intake resonator re-engineered for increased airflow



this will probably reduce EGTs a tad, and may be an opportunity for the bombers to replace this on their trucks to I don't know. This was motivated by the NOx regulation which required a reduction in combustion temps to accomplish. mild to no envy :D



• Larger compressor on Holset turbocharger



A similar improvement for the 03-04 may be obtained by the Piersified turbo for small power upgrades. For all but small power improvements, a different turbo altogether will be required anyway, something like a DD or B1. So no envy here.



• Engine cooling improved with new fan assembly and mounting fan shroud to engine for more efficient airflow through radiator



We 03-04 guys will probably envy this, and wish for some after market solution to help engine cooling during sustained hard pulls with upgraded power.



• Upgraded intercooler



I wonder if the combination of this and the intake "resonator" (what does that mean?) is something special in some way. for the moderate bombers, the intercooler has seldom been problematic and I wonder what real benefit this provides. Additional EGT control of course, mandated by the NOx regulations (high combustion temps = NOx). So I'd say moderate to low envy here. I wonder if the 04. 5 will fit the 03-04?



• Upgraded exhaust valves



hmm. I'm sure we 03-04 guys have good valves, but we'll probably always wonder if the "updrade" here is due to swirl and combustion control, or durability. Are we sure this is an 04. 5 upgrade and not an 02-03 upgrade?



• Tailpipe increased to 4-inch diameter



the tailpipe is already 4-inch. what changed is the other side of the muff/CAT. Exhaust is easy to change on the 03-04s, particularly since there is no CAT (the removal of which could cause unwanted legal attention... ). definately no envy here



• Improved sealing and gasket materials



sounds good to me, but not sure what it means in terms of durabilty to the 03-04 engines. anyone know?



• Oil-change intervals are now 15,000 miles (vs. 7,500 for competition).



This is certainly not an 04. 5 change. this occured in 03.



• Switch to electronic control of wastegate



bummer for bombers. now if you put on an after market turbo, you have to either fool the ECM wastegate controller and temp sensors, or provide a more expensive after market turbo that includes the necessary sensors and controllable wastegate. definately no envy here; I'd rather have a "dumb" turbo.



• Upgrades to exhaust manifold



Certainly motivated by NOx reduction, to be sure, and not really important for the bombers because this is easily changed out to a 2 or 3 piece manifold anyway if necessary.



• Revised intake ports in cylinder head

• New piston bowl geometry

• Different spray pattern from injectors



these are all swirl and combustion control targeted at NOx reduction, not power or fuel efficiency. the latter may or may not have occured, but was not the motivating factor.



In general, what I see on the 04. 5 is motivated to reduce combustion temps and control NOx. Most of the efforts in this regard are already part of a bombers plan; the only exceptions being the intercooler and intake "resonator". its not clear to me if these represent weak spots that will frustrate moderate bombs. I suspect not.



to me, the most envious part of the 04. 5 changes are those relating to radiator and engine cooling. Why did they do this? From a theromodynamics standpoint I'm wondering if the new engine may have greater demands on the cooling system. think about it: Unless the new engine is more fuel efficient, you have the same overall heat dissipation requriements (energy lost in various forms versus energy to the wheels) But there is less heat going out the tailpipe (reduced combustion temps motivated by NOx control) yet more power going to the wheels. where does that energy go? the only other place it can go is the radiator.





for those intending to stay stock, I can't think of any disadvantage to the 04. 5 (the additional complexity is low, and far less than the competition). For the bombers, the 03-04 platform I claim is better because:



0. most of the 04. 5 air improvements are things that we will change anyway



1. the 04. 5 turbo will be more expensive/difficult to change



2. Removal of the 04. 5 CAT will be considered tampering with an emissions component (illegal)



3. the new regulations will likely mean tighter local inspections and greater risk that bombs won't be legal



4. The 03-04 fueling boxes have a greater chance of being street legal. they may never be, but they have a greater probability of obtaining such.
 
Tobaccogrower,

The Ford and Chev both have far more extensive emmission control equipment than the 2004. 5 600 Cummins. Our engines are simpler than either. By a long shot.

Robert,

I think Hunter1 was trying to punch your gears a little! I reiterate that from where I stand the 600 looks like it is probably the best Cummins engine to date. I am sure it will prove to be as good as the previous offerings. All I was saying is that they didn't up the performance ante enough for me to contemplate spending any money to upgrade from my '03 HO.





Dave
 
Originally posted by DPelletier

All I was saying is that they didn't up the performance ante enough for me to contemplate spending any money to upgrade from my '03 HO.





Dave



I agree with Dave. The '03 was a "new" engine, too. I would feel badly if I had a '03-'04 SO. I am plenty happy with my '03 as are most and I am confident that most will be equally happy with the '04. 5. The engines are made by Cummins, after all.



Dean
 
Originally posted by DPelletier

Tobaccogrower,

The Ford and Chev both have far more extensive emmission control equipment than the 2004. 5 600 Cummins. Our engines are simpler than either. By a long shot.

Dave



oh man, yes. just tell anyone interested to look under the hood at all the plumbing. Not only is there EGR, variable geometry turbocharger, and all the requried controls, there is the striking disadvantage of the V8 with two manifolds, the associated turbocharger plumbing, the complex intake system, etc. In contrast, the Cummins is simple and elegant!
 
About that shroud... I interpreted the early comments that "shroud was mounted to engine" to mean that the shroud rotated with the fan, and was sealed to the radiator by some new seals-OK, not so smart. Anyway I get mine and see that it does not rotate and think they changed their mind, but in another post somebody pointed out that the shroud was mounted to the engine-it did not rotate - OK that makes sense-I went back and looked and sure enough it is-I think this allows a tighter fan to shroud clearance, because if the engine moves back and forth the shroud moves with it, right-I have not seen it explained this way-anybody want to chime in?



DLeno, I agree with you-the 2004½ is a very mildly bombed 03-04 from a power standpoint, with a lot of complex stuff that is emissions related, and makes further bombing suspect... for now. Still better that a Chevy or Ford, right? And captures power bragging rites from both of them for a while.



Afacey-one difference in PC's and CTD's is that a 5 year old PC is dumpster liner, and a CTD is just getting broken in :D
 
Originally posted by RobertBolinger

DLeno, I agree with you-the 2004½ is a very mildly bombed 03-04 from a power standpoint, with a lot of complex stuff that is emissions related, and makes further bombing suspect... for now. Still better that a Chevy or Ford, right? And captures power bragging rites from both of them for a while.




oh, without QUESTION the 04. 5 is worlds away from Ford and Chevy in my opinon, and there is serious bragging rights here for Cummins. F and C still have V8s -- just think about the intake, turbocharger, and exhaust plumbing requirements for a minute! And emissions related stuff: Cummins has none compared to the others. ok, so it has a CAT: thats it! the rest is just elegant engineering -- they avoided EGR which, regardless of that controversy, introduces more complexity. complexity is bad for reliability and Cumins has even more advantage in that regard now -- The I6 versus V8 part count is already a 30% advantage to Cummins. Now add all that complex plumbing and EGR on top of the V8...



just think:



2 exhaust manifolds



plumbing from 2 manifolds down to one turbocharger, and all the equalizing and balancing that implies...



2 intake manifolds



plumbing from 1 intercooler to the pair of intake manifolds, and all the equalizing and balancing that implies...
 
I moved up from an 01 HO to a 600 last week. I cannot really comment on the power difference for a several reasons.



1) I really haven't tried to get into it yet.



2) with the 6 speed, you spend so much time shifting that it's hard to get a feel for the extra power. I'm sure if you were to compare autos, the difference would be more apparant.



3) I got the truck to tow the 5er. After I get the hitch installed and have a chance to pull it up a few hills, I'll report back.



4) I need to brake it in to really see what power is there. My past experience is that takes about 10,000 miles.



What I can tell you right now, the new truck is quiet, I like that, ... a bunch. I like the Sirius radio, a lot. The ride and handling is much better. The truck doesn't seem to go out of control like the 01 did when hitting a bad stretch of road or turning where there is a change in pavement height.
 
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