30K towing rating - Sales gimmic or real world capable?

[JAlford]

I am looking at new trucks for towing capacity, and I am surprised by the ratings. The engine for the 3500 dually and AISIN trans is really high output, but when you look at a 5500 cab chassis, the engine is rated much lower, and the towing capacity is much lower, even with the 4.88 axle ratio.

This really doesn't give me a warm and comfy feel about what the capacity really is for the 3500. I am looking to tow a 21000lb trailer, and from the specs it would seem that the 3500 is much more capable. That seems very counter intuitive, since the components used in the 5500 are much more robust.

Does anyone have the "inside scoop" on these "best in class" rating wars?

Jeff

 

[RustyJC]

I'm towing a 19K GVWR 5th wheel with a 350/650 Cummins/68RFE/4.10 axle early 2011 4x2 dually with no problems whatsoever. Coolant and transmission temperatures are well within limits even in 100+ degF Texas summers. With the additional cooling, beefier components and improved brake controller as compared to my 2011, I wouldn't hesitate at all to pull a 21K trailer with a 2016 385/900 Cummins/Aisin/4.10 dually.

A lot of the ratings (such as the 26K GCWR of my truck) are built around laws that require an enhanced driver license in many states once GVWR exceeds 14K or GCWR is 26,001 lbs or higher. That is likely what you're seeing with the 4500 and 5500 trucks. With those ceilings and the fact that the 4500s and 5500s are probably heavier than the pickups, tow and payload ratings are lower.

Rusty

 

[mpaulson]

On the 4500 and 5500's the reduce power IS noticeable! I have a buddy with a 5500 2014 that he bought at the same time as I bought my 3500 and I blow the doors off of his 5500 and I'm hauling more weight. I makes me mad as well as I would like a 5500 with a 13' deck for hauling quads and a boat on the truck but in no way could I live with doing 80 km/hr on hills and slow acceleration on ramps etc.
As far as the tow rating for the 3500, yes, it is real and totally capable. People have been pulling these kinds of weights for years, it's just now the factory ratings are finally getting up to where some trucks have been being used anyway.

 

[Tuesdak]

You build a Pickup around cost, HP wars, and an expected 100,000 mile lifetime or less before the new vehicle buyer dumps it for another new one. You care about the used market why again while making new wigits?

The Commercial Market is different from the weekend 5er towing and DD use. It's Tow trucks, box delivery trucks, utility/service with cranes, and other commercial vehicles on the road all day with expected 500,000 mile or better lifetimes while loaded to the max all the time. Creature comforts and horsepower take a back seat to fuel economy and ease of maintenance. Don't forget the engine running while the wheels are not turning uses. Carpet cleaning with PTO engine driven pumps/vacuums, crane operation, bucket operation, etc. that change oil by engine hours not miles.

You de-rate the engine so it lasts longer and burns less fuel. It = engine, transmission, driveline, and everything else that wears out faster with higher power levels like the oddball you wouldn't think of it cooling fan clutch. (The RAM Long Hauler also has a derated engine for longer life.) The 4500/5500 is expected to be at full load most of the time so extra power just wears things out faster. MPG is critical to profit in commercial trucks. Low by consumer vehicle standards MPG reflects the work the truck is *always* doing by hauling around 1-2 consumer vehicles. Commercial interest have put 55 MPH and other stupid traffic impeding speed limiters on their trucks for better MPG. HP wars and you blowing it's doors off with your 3500 are reasons to fire their driver for even trying to race you. So the HP wars do not apply to the commercial market unless maybe they are pushing an underpowered dog that costs them extra time without saving enough fuel to cover it. Running out of DOT hours of service because the truck is slow is a valid concern.

The original reason diesels were popular was not the stupid power they have today, but, cheap fuel and sky high MPG.

I will say it again cost and MPG are important in the 4500 and 5500 market. 1 MPG can be the difference between profit and loss. Yet you can't make things too light and have it breaking down all the time so MPG is traded for heavier parts that will last.

Think of the underpowered 6.2 Detroit Diesel GM used since 1982. They dropped an economizer ~100 HP 6.2/6.5 NA engine in Frito Lay delivery vans. The lowest rating for the engine otherwise was ~130 HP. Fun day at work trying to get that gutless wonder out of it's own way all day.

There is a difference in insurance and license plates on 2500's vs. 3500's in some states where the 3500's have to have commercial plates. So some of the 2500/3500/4500/5500 is just a game of the system.

 

[mwilson]

One of the most savvy customers that I have ran 425 Cat engines cut to 350 horse with big transmissions and drive axles back in the day in his Class 8 Tractor Trailer rigs. Ran forever. Good fuel mileage. Very few problems compared to the others.

JDoremire is dead on with his above statements. Slow and steady wins the race....

 

[Cummins12V98]

I think I can attest to the true capability of these 3500 Dually 4.10 Aisin trucks. My combined weight is 32,500# my front axle weighs 5,460# and the rear 9,580#, all within SAE J2807 ratings. Bottom line the truck handles the load with ease up and down 6% grades along the WestCoast and in nasty winds. Get the factory air it's well worth it especially when towing heavy. Pin weight is 5,500# you can see between the two pics the truck sits the same loaded or unloaded nice and level as it should.

 

[spoon059]

You build a Pickup around cost, HP wars, and an expected 100,000 mile lifetime or less before the new vehicle buyer dumps it for another new one. You care about the used market why again while making new wigits?

The Commercial Market is different from the weekend 5er towing and DD use. It's Tow trucks, box delivery trucks, utility/service with cranes, and other commercial vehicles on the road all day with expected 500,000 mile or better lifetimes while loaded to the max all the time.

Yes and no... The one ton pickup truck is designed and built to last far longer than simply 100K miles. Most pickup drivers aren't exclusively hauling max weights around for every single mile driven though. They are designed to give a comfortable ride and great power to handle moderate heavy duty use.

On the other hand, the 4500 and 5500 series trucks are designed to carry substantial weight ALL THE TIME. Think a delivery truck, ambulance, tow truck, etc. They have to work all day everyday for years on end with minimal down time. Very rarely re trucks like this used for personal use... they are bought commercially by fleet managers who are concerned with longer duty cycle. The engines are de-rated to allow a much longer service life at maximum weights.

I don't see any reason why a new 3500 dually cannot pull those weights, stop those weights and maintain those weights with ease. Unless you are hauling your 20K lbs camper all day every day for years on end, you should be fine.

 

[Newsa]

You build a Pickup around cost, HP wars, and an expected 100,000 mile lifetime or less before the new vehicle buyer dumps it for another new one. You care about the used market why again while making new wigits?

The Commercial Market is different from the weekend 5er towing and DD use. It's Tow trucks, box delivery trucks, utility/service with cranes, and other commercial vehicles on the road all day with expected 500,000 mile or better lifetimes while loaded to the max all the time. Creature comforts and horsepower take a back seat to fuel economy and ease of maintenance. Don't forget the engine running while the wheels are not turning uses. Carpet cleaning with PTO engine driven pumps/vacuums, crane operation, bucket operation, etc. that change oil by engine hours not miles.

You de-rate the engine so it lasts longer and burns less fuel. It = engine, transmission, driveline, and everything else that wears out faster with higher power levels like the oddball you wouldn't think of it cooling fan clutch. (The RAM Long Hauler also has a derated engine for longer life.) The 4500/5500 is expected to be at full load most of the time so extra power just wears things out faster. MPG is critical to profit in commercial trucks. Low by consumer vehicle standards MPG reflects the work the truck is *always* doing by hauling around 1-2 consumer vehicles. Commercial interest have put 55 MPH and other stupid traffic impeding speed limiters on their trucks for better MPG. HP wars and you blowing it's doors off with your 3500 are reasons to fire their driver for even trying to race you. So the HP wars do not apply to the commercial market unless maybe they are pushing an underpowered dog that costs them extra time without saving enough fuel to cover it. Running out of DOT hours of service because the truck is slow is a valid concern.

The original reason diesels were popular was not the stupid power they have today, but, cheap fuel and sky high MPG.

I will say it again cost and MPG are important in the 4500 and 5500 market. 1 MPG can be the difference between profit and loss. Yet you can't make things too light and have it breaking down all the time so MPG is traded for heavier parts that will last.

Think of the underpowered 6.2 Detroit Diesel GM used since 1982. They dropped an economizer ~100 HP 6.2/6.5 NA engine in Frito Lay delivery vans. The lowest rating for the engine otherwise was ~130 HP. Fun day at work trying to get that gutless wonder out of it's own way all day.

There is a difference in insurance and license plates on 2500's vs. 3500's in some states where the 3500's have to have commercial plates. So some of the 2500/3500/4500/5500 is just a game of the system.

I'm glad i have the derated g56 version. I plan on keeping this truck awhile

 

[kthaxton]

I'm glad i have the derated g56 version.

You just keep telling yourself that.

The Fox and the Grapes

Cognitive Dissonance:
Rather than admit his failure to reach the grapes, the fox rationalizes that they are not really desirable. One commentator argues that the story illustrates the state of cognitive dissonance. The fox is taken as attempting to hold incompatible ideas simultaneously, desire and its frustration. In that case, the disdain expressed by the fox at the conclusion to the fable serves at least to reduce the dissonance through criticism. Jon Elster calls this pattern of mental behaviour "adaptive preference formation"

:-laf:-laf

 

[Newsa]

You just keep telling yourself that.

The Fox and the Grapes



:-laf:-laf

That's what i keep telling my buddy who won't shut up about his old 12 valve that had 490,000 miles on it when he "hit a curb" and messed it up. His truck probably had less than half the torque of a 2016.
Sometimes i wonder if the derating helped the longevity?