3500 or 4500?

[SmithMark]

I could use some advice. I have been using my stock 96 dodge dually 4x4 , manual trans, that I bought new ,to pull a horse trailer that weighs about 13,500 lb fully loaded about 6,000 miles a year. During hay season I am hauling 14,000 lb hay + flatbed, making several short trips. I drive it another 6,000 miles or so unloaded or with lighter towing loads under 10,000 lb. I know I have been well over the limit on my truck and have just put in my 4th clutch plate at 145,000mi . Divide 4 clutch plates into 145,000 and you can see it gets expensive, not to mention a pain in the rear.



I want to go with cab and chassis because a flat bed would be more useful and easier to hook up. I want( and need) a quad cab 4x4. Will I be ok with the 3500(13,500 rated towing) or should I go with the 4500 , man trans with 4:10 rear (16,500lb towing) or automatic and have to go to 4. 44 rearend?? I'd like to get the best mileage I can, but I don't want to tear up an under powered truck to save on fuel costs.

 

[jgillott]

I can't comment specifically on what combination will give you the best fuel economy. Though another 3500 would certainly work for you, if the added initial cost for the heavier truck is not an issue, I would certainly opt for the 4500 using it the way you described. Just the larger wheels, tires, brakes etc. would be much more suited for your application over the long term.

 

[EB]

No more than you use your truck, I would say a 3500 C&C would do fine for you. A 4500 will give you less fuel mileage than a 3500, so I understand, and when you are running empty, beat you to death. As far as transmissions go, that choice is yours, although the problems you have had with clutches I would lean toward the Aisin automatic.



I have an 07 3500 C&C that I pull a 9000 lb trailer (empty wt. ) with everyday. I will load it up 15k payload and have had very few problems with it other than the environmental equipment which has nothing to do with working the truck. I have the Aisin transmission and now have over 180,000 miles on it with no problems. My last truck was a 2003, 3500 that I put 345,000 miles on and other than a few CP3 pumps, (probably caused by an Edge box) the only thing I did was change 1 clutch.



Your choice, but I think you would be paying for more truck than you need with a 4500.

 

[HBarlow]

Your clutch problems seem excessive, even for towing heavy loads. Do you rev the engine when starting the load?

You may know this as well or better than I do but I'll mention the possibility. A Cummins inline 6 turbodiesel engine produces 350 to 375 ft. lbs. of torque at idle. It is not necessary to rev the engine to start the load. It is only necessary to slowly engage the clutch then bring engine rpm up to minimize clutch slippage.

If you decide to buy a new truck, try driving an empty 4500 before you buy one. I wanted a 4500 until I test drove a couple of them on dealer's lots. They are very stiff when empty. I bought a 3500 quad cab and chassis. I think a 3500 quad cab and chassis will do everything you want it to do although it might be technically slightly overloaded occasionally.

 

[SmithMark]

I never rev the engine, but I almost always start in second gear, even under heavy load because it never seemed to bother it. My 1983 1 ton dodge dump truck with the 360 4barrel still has the original clutch, but due to low torqe compared to the diesel, I start in 1st gear with it, when under a load.

Given the advice I have had so far, I am leaning toward the 3500 with an automatic. My wife and daughter don't like shifting. I guess if I made it 12 years with cummins that puts out 200 hp and 496 ft lb torque, then a new 3500 should work better. I wouldn't mind the rough ride of a 4500, but I know my wife will b---- about it.

Ijust want the next one to last at least 12 years with without major repairs.

It will only get about 12k miles a year put on it.

 

[HBarlow]

If you buy one you'll like the Aisin automatic. Mine has an Aisin also and I'm well pleased with it.

The comment I'm going to make may cause angry responses from those who have bought a new Ram truck with a G-56 manual 6 speed but anyone who has put a lot of miles on one has already replaced his clutch and flywheel assembly or soon will. The new G-56 is reportedly a good transmission but it comes with a lousy dual mass flywheel which does not hold up under heavy service.

The recent issue of TDR magazine includes an ad by Standard Transmission and Gear for a complete replacement clutch and flywheel assembly for '06 and later trucks with manual G-56 transmissions. Their kit replaces the troublesome dual mass flywheel clutch assembly with a conventional flywheel and clutch.

 

[SmithMark]

Well, my local dealer found a truck in Tn that I liked and it should be here next week, then up to Quincy Illinois to get a 9 foot Knapheide flatbed on it with gooseneck hitch. got the 2008 3500 quad cab slt 4x4 with the Aisin 6 speed auto, in brilliant black. Can't wait to put it into service. I didn't realize that they haven't even started making the 09 models yet, and according to the dealer, won't start till sometime in February. The dealer said the only trucks they are selling right now are the C&C models.

 

[RVTRKN]

I never rev the engine, but I almost always start in second gear, even under heavy load because it never seemed to bother it. My 1983 1 ton dodge dump truck with the 360 4barrel still has the original clutch, but due to low torqe compared to the diesel, I start in 1st gear with it, when under a load.

Given the advice I have had so far, I am leaning toward the 3500 with an automatic. My wife and daughter don't like shifting. I guess if I made it 12 years with cummins that puts out 200 hp and 496 ft lb torque, then a new 3500 should work better. I wouldn't mind the rough ride of a 4500, but I know my wife will b---- about it.

Ijust want the next one to last at least 12 years with without major repairs.

It will only get about 12k miles a year put on it.

There is your problem, with 2nd gear you should only start out unloaded. It seems troublesome to start out in 1st but now you know what happens if you start in 2nd with a load.

If you buy one you'll like the Aisin automatic. Mine has an Aisin also and I'm well pleased with it.



The comment I'm going to make may cause angry responses from those who have bought a new Ram truck with a G-56 manual 6 speed but anyone who has put a lot of miles on one has already replaced his clutch and flywheel assembly or soon will. The new G-56 is reportedly a good transmission but it comes with a lousy dual mass flywheel which does not hold up under heavy service.



The recent issue of TDR magazine includes an ad by Standard Transmission and Gear for a complete replacement clutch and flywheel assembly for '06 and later trucks with manual G-56 transmissions. Their kit replaces the troublesome dual mass flywheel clutch assembly with a conventional flywheel and clutch.

I see you can tell the future, The G56 had some issues when first introduced, but D/C quickly removed them from the market. I know because you could not get a manual for about six months in 05. But as far as the Dual Mass Flywheel, I don't know of one case where the DMF went bad. I would be the first to complain if mine had any DMF issues, because it was my biggest worry, that and the plastic gear scare. I saw a brand new G56 in a 05 Mega Cab, sled pull with only 6 miles, yes thats right, 6 miles on the odometer and pulled just as well as any stock equipped truck pulled that day. Now the Fords and Gm's had problems with the DMF but as of yet no Dodges that I'm aware of. There is a great write up in TDR issue 52 (I think it is), on the differences between the G56 and the NV5600 and was deemed just as good if not better than the NV5600. They are used in the medium duty class, and for a lot longer as well, for that matter.



Just for the record, I have both currently and like the NV5600 better. But my G56 has performed just as good. Its the small things I don't like about it, like reverse being down and to the left next to 2nd. I hate thinking I'm in second and all of a sudden when starting out I move backwards, and when in 5th going to 6th the ratios are so close, at first I thought I was slipping the clutch. But the G56 is a good trany and if you like an auto thats fine, but a Diesel is better coupled to a manual, period! All the proof I need is the fact that 90% of Semi's are manual.

 

[SmithMark]

Well, I ended up getting a 2008 new, black quad cab and chassis 3500SLT, 4x4 and put a 9 foot knapheide flatbed with gooseneck. Went with the auto matic. limited slip, upgraded cd/radio with Siriuris. snow plow prep(no PTO). Thought I was going to miss my old 96 12 valve dodge manual 4x4, but I don't. This truck pulls my 13k load easily, and at age 55, I don't miss the noise. I actually pulled up to a drive through and didn't have to shut off my engine to give my order. Back doors are nice, too. acceleration is much better. The dealer said the mileage will not improve till around 6,000 mi, so I haven't checked it(sort of like I don't want to check my 401 k right now either). Knapheide did a good job with ibuilding and installing the bed, my only gripe being they didn't hook up the auxillary on my 6 plug, so I don't have lights in my horse trailer. Surely this truck came wired for that. When it warms up, if I can find the right wire,I will add it myself I guess. As far as a deal, I didn't steal it. I don't mind sharing on the cost as long as nobody tells me I got screwed. If I did, I would rather not know. I probably could have shopped and done better, but the truck had to be ready to pull when I picked it up and the dealer handled all that for me.

Truck msrp just under $44k + 9 ft steel bed at $6979, + tax ( I think about $2,000) - rebate ($2,000) - 6,000 for my 96(NADA trade in value $4800) + license and fees and a full tank of diesel(52 gallons) and I paid $41,000 even. Hope that helps someone.

 

[LBARTLETT]

I always think trucks are like horses!!!! If it/he is worth it to you and you have what you want that's all that matters, good luck with your new truck

 

[RVTRKN]

As far as a deal, I didn't steal it. I don't mind sharing on the cost as long as nobody tells me I got screwed. If I did, I would rather not know. I probably could have shopped and done better, but the truck had to be ready to pull when I picked it up and the dealer handled all that for me.

Truck msrp just under $44k + 9 ft steel bed at $6979, + tax ( I think about $2,000) - rebate ($2,000) - 6,000 for my 96(NADA trade in value $4800) + license and fees and a full tank of diesel(52 gallons) and I paid $41,000 even. Hope that helps someone.

You did good and enjoy the truck but they lied to you about the MPG. That is the only negative about the new C&C 305 HP 6. 7 engine. Please post some pics when you get a chance.

 

[SmithMark]

Thanks for feedback. will post pictures soon.

Mark

 

[SmithMark]

pictures of my 3500

ok, I hope these pictures attach. 2008 4x4 SLTC&C with 9 ft knapheide flatbed, with gooseneck and tool boxes. 6 speed automatic, 4. 10 rear axle, limited slip differential

 

[SmithMark]

Darn, no pictures. I'll try again tomorrow.

 

[SmithMark]

pictures

pictures attached hopefully

 

[SmithMark]

View attachment 71386

another picture

 

[Cattletrkr]

But as far as the Dual Mass Flywheel, I don't know of one case where the DMF went bad.

I don't know of a single DMF that hasn't been replaced.

SmithMark, looks like a good deal on the truck. The bed sounds really high to me. I bought the cheapest one I could find and paid less than 1/2 what you did. Of course, 1/2 wasn't quite enough 'cause yours looks like a higher quality unit. Do you have a tunnel for the GN? Is it easier to hook up like you were hoping? The wires are all there for the plug. Shouldn't be too hard to find.

 

[SmithMark]

There is no tunnel for the gooseneck. That would have helped. Hooking it up is about as much hassle as a reglar bed, because I still have to climb in the bed to open the door in the floor for the hidden gooseneck, get down, line it up, drop the trailer down on the hitch, then climb back in to hook up hitch and electric. I have to raise the trailer higher than I used to to clear the steel bed. My old truck had the top of the rear bed walls on both sides crushed in a couple inches from where the trailer came down on it and the tail gait was unusable because people would forget to lower it after unhitching (you see my wife and daughter use it). I don't have to worry about that anymore. The cost of the bed was increased by about $600 for the two tool boxes and I forget how much for the 6 inch remmovable steel sides. Adding a bumper pull hitch to the flat bed was an option and that cost extra as well. they put a 6 plug round under the bed by the gooseneck hitch, and a standard 7 plug for the bumper hitch. I thought it was high, too, but I needed the truck ready to go when I traded my old one in and the dealer only worked with Knapheide. I added dodge step up rails yesterday which added to the looks and made my wife happy, as it is much easier to get in now. Before, I had an old dodge flatbed 1983 30 4barrel carb 4x2, and a regular 96 dodge 4x4 dually for pulling. Hurricane gustav sent 80 mph winds into southern Illinois and dropped a tree across the old flat bed, so I got rid of both of them. Now with one truck with flatbed and able to pull= one less vehicle to pay for insurance and licenses and one less vehicle to do repairs on.

 

[RVTRKN]

I don't know of a single DMF that hasn't been replaced.

I disagree, if the DMF's were so bad, the competition Blogs would never let up about them. Also do a search on TDR for a specific DMF failure and you won't find many posts. I have been a steady reader of TDR as well as a member, and if there would of been any threads on them I would have read it when posted. I'm not saying there perfect, but they perform OK within stock parameters. FWIW I will be replacing mine with a "proper flywheel" when its time for clutch replacement.