47RE and 47RH Front Servo

[Stefan Kondolay]

Stakeman,



Bill is dealer training for a week and gets back into town on Sunday, i am swamped, some of us work for a living .

 

[inarush76]

Let's see. Speaking in terms of first through third only.

First gear=low roller, rr clutch

second gear=intermediate band, rr clutch

third gear=front clutch, rr clutch

First gear to second gear shift is simply band comes on, low roller free wheels.



Second gear to third gear shift is band releases and front clutch applies.



Now if those who stir the pot would study power flow they would see that if the band releases before the front clutch applies the low roller will apply due to drum release and voila, first gear.



Now, if the front clutch applies(begins to hold) before the band releases(holds the drum that contains front clutch) you have the 2-3 bind(two gears at once).



This all happens in short periods of time. A slight 2-3 bind up is not felt in many cases due to the torque in these trucks just pulling through it. Though it can be seen with a pressure gauge.

A 2-3 bind can shorten the life of the band and front clutch as it subjects both to undue stress and heat.



If the band releases the drum before the front clutch starts to hold you get a flare(slight rpm increase). Looking at the power flow it shows rr clutch, band off, low roller holds= first gear until the front clutch applies with rr clutch and it's in third.



These are timing issues between apply and release of friction elements.



The facts are: these trans do shift 1-2-1-3 in a perfect world where there is no 2-3 bind. So, once again it shows Bill was correct in his statement while others just look for places to use sarcasm and fish for knowledge they obviously can't get any where else while trying to cloud the issue. No finger pointing or name calling, just an observation. Give Bill credit for KNOWING the Dodge trans and how it works and leave it at that.



Hope this sheds some light on this. I apologize if unclear, I'm a trans builder not a literary master.

Sorry for the long post. My carpal tunnel is not happy.



James

DTT builder/installer

 

[StakeMan]

Originally posted by inarush76



Now if those who stir the pot would study power flow they would see that if the band releases before the front clutch applies the low roller will apply due to drum release and voila, first gear.

Exactly. If the transmission shifts as Bill says it does it can not have a 2-3 bind up.



To me it seems like shift timing could be an issue for some.

 

[GLASMITHS]

Good post James

We are all going to be transmission experts when this is over

 

[Stefan Kondolay]

Stakeman,



Now after what James has explained I hope it makes a little more sense to you. A perfectly set-up transmission requires tests in order to happen, you can't just slap some parts in a truck hand the customer the keys and say your on your way sir. You can't even just go on a road test because a lot of times you can even feel a 2-3 bind-up that doesn't mean it's not there. You need a pressure gauge and you need to know the proper tests, that's why my dad (Bill K/DTT) spends the time to teach all of his dealers this type of stuff, because when a customer spends the money for the labor he better get more than he could have done in this garage at home.



Now say we have a customer that leaves our shop with a perfectly set-up transmission (no bind-up or flare shift) then he installs an EMJAY controller and alters the 2-3 shift whether you make the shift happen at an lower RPM or higher RPM wouldn't you have just thrown that perfect timing off? Now that the timing has been thrown off, did they tell you how to check it or are you doing it by seat of the pants. We have already established that a lot of the time you can't even feel it (bind-up), so that throws out seat of the pants testing wouldn't it?



For those who have already received a controller have you been told the proper testing procedure to make sure this won't happen? When you alter your shift points you could be affecting your transmission durability if bind-up is happening.



So Stakeman have they told you the proper tests to do when on the road if you change anything, because even if I didn't plan on making changes I would still want to know what to check if I did, for peace of mind if anything. What are the tests if any, Stake?



I'm not trying to start a pi$$ing contest, remember their are a lot that can lose or gain by products such as these.



So to sum-it-up, you a consumer pay the money for a transmission expert to set-up your truck, then in 5 minutes with a laptop you can undo what the trans man just did, do you know how to check it.

 

[Joel Richards]

It has nothing to do with lack of oxygen - it's the lack of logical thinking and the absolute physical impossibility of both a 2-3 "bind up" shift and a 1-2-1-3 shift sequence.



If you have a 1-2-1-3 shift sequence, you cannot have 2-3 "bind up" - if you have 2-3 "bind up", you cannot have a 1-2-1-3 shift!



Explain to all of us EXACTLY how you can have a 2-3 bind up AND a 1-2-1-3 shift sequence... . So, which one is it? You can’t have both, but some would lead you to believe that you can.



So, now I'm to believe that I have both a 1-2-1-3 shift sequence, and a 2-3 "bind up"? Now it becomes a 1-2-1-2-bind up-3 shift sequence I guess... And where on earth does the governor come into play here? That was the original claim of DTT – a device touching the governor circuit CAUSES this 2-3 "bind up" – a “bind up” which according to Bill was put there in the first place by the factory for “drivability” - in which case, if the bind up is already there from the factory, how can it be stated that something else (like the Emjay) is, or can, cause it? According to Bill, IT'S ALREADY THERE!!!



So given the claims that Bill is making, my 2002 DC has:

• A 1-2-1-3 shift sequence.
  
• A 2-3 bind up with the Emjay Strategy (because it modifies the governors excitation voltage)
  
• A Manufacturer “feature” for drivability of a 2-3 bind up shift
  

None of which I, nor any of my DC friends have found to be true. Will this kind of rhetoric ever end?



Also, I'm still waiting for a response to my post from a month ago... Where, other than DTT (i. e. DC Manual) is it stated the proper procedure for using a gauge for detecting any 2-3 bind up (either "factory supplied" or Emjay)? What are we to be looking for on that gauge? According to the local Dodge dealers and their transmission techs, there is no such procedure, because you could not detect this supposed "bind up" with any kind of pressure gauge. If this "bind up" did happen, the TCM would throw a code and you would go into limp mode immediately.



-joel

 

[tractorface]

HUH?

I used to think Colorado was a nice place to visit but I'm not so sure now. (You know with the brain sucker runnin around and all). Absolutely ridiculous and I don't know any of ya!



Just my unbiased opinion.



I have been lookin at this thread for a while and see where DTT's explanation has been posted several times. Personally don't know if it is correct but the information is there and does not contain contradictions, at least none this laymen can see. Just READ, if the information if false give a technival explanation showing the differences.



I am trying to learn here and all my learnin seems to be coming from North of the Border. I also got some good information from Dave G. I got nothing from the pot stirring guys when I called. I got directed to a shop that told me they do not build Transmissions! Called back to say WTF and was apologized to "the computer is listing them wrong" Now they may have a great transmission, I don't know, but that really turned me off. Was keeping all of that to myself but am tired of seeing the same two or three BS everywhere.



There I feel better now!

sorry all for lashing out.

 

[Stefan Kondolay]

Let me explain this in plain english for you Joel, I'm not gonna get into detail because that is your vendors job, but based on your and their arguements it is very obvious that they don't know, so why should Bill/I or our dealers educate you supposed experts.



In order to have 2nd gear the band has to be applied. Agree or disagree Joel?



In order to have 3rd gear your 3rd gear clutch pack has to be applied and the 2nd gear band has to be released. Agree or disagree Joel?



In order for the 2-3 shift to happen perfectly the band needs to release before the clutches apply. Agree or disagree Joel?



Meaning on a perfectly set-up trans it will momentarily go into 1st gear when the band release and the clutches apply. If it is set-up perfectly you won't feel it, it will happen too fast. If 3rd takes to long to apply after the band has released you will have a flare shift If the band takes to long to release and the clutches apply you will have a bind-up, meaning both gears are applied at the same time.



So to sum it up if it's perfectly set-up,the trans will momentarely go into 1st but un-feelable.



A truck that is set-up with bind-up will go 1-2-3 but Bill never said that you could have both, that's just people twisting his words.



So just for you Joel again:



Perfectly done 1-2-1-3

not perfect 1-2-3

 

[pwr2tow]

Originally posted by Stefan Kondolay

tractorface,



A lot of our dealers and customers have been bugging my dad to tell guys what is inside DTT transmissions that makes it different from the other guys. He has been pretty tight lipped about how he was making these trucks live even with 800 + hp.



It was actually a comment made by Proturbo99 that made him realize that unless we show you guys how different it is inside our DTT transmission you guys will assume they are all the same because the pricing is all about the same in the industry.



Proturbo's comments in simple terms was that the diesel industry was overcharging for these diesel transmissions.



As we dont feel we belong in that catagory, in the next little while we will break down the internal components for you guys and you can decide for yourselves.

Stephan,

So how is it comeing, I was hopeing you would do this because PROTURBO 99 and LSMITH were dogging me about the very same thing in the post you are referring to. I did call 4 different aftermarket transmission makers and got basically the same thing from all of you.



Very good information from all the transmission places and proof that PROTURBO 99 and LSMITH had more learning to do. The reason I didn't reply after checking it out was in respect to the original thread starter. Besides the manufacturers could do 98% better at describeing there products than I ever could.



This is not a change of my mind about DTT and their marketing practices but there are things even rivals can agree on.



Ron

 

[fox]

Just to help the doubters of 1-2 1,3 The rear sprag quietly ratchets because the ground speed is higher that input speed. Thus no down shift is felt .

Not an-expert just smart enough to understand it. And a student of higher learning.

As I see it the trans will have a case of 1-2, 1 -3 or bind-up but not both at the same gear change. But the same trans can have both symptoms, one at light throttle and the other at a greater throttle.

Agreed??

 

[Stefan Kondolay]

That is exactly what Bill has been saying fox 100% correct.

But it varies on throttle pressure and governor pressure. All the dtt system is designed to do is give you the best of both worlds. and you cannot do that soley with factory parts, we tried to it. That is why the custom components came to be, as Bill said he said he will break it down on his website when he gets home.

 

[LSMITH]

Ron HOW and WHAT was I wrong about? Be specific please.

 

[pwr2tow]

LSMITH,

Too many how's and what's for me to explain, and besides I'am not an expert, never claimed to be and never will be, I have too many other interests and no matter how much I said someone would always turn it around anyhow. Call the companies yourself, do some research and you will answer your own questions. Choose to believe what they say or not to, if you do than you will see, if you don't than nothing will change your mind anyhow so the point is mute.



Ron

 

[rweis]

I am a really newby at this, especially the transmission. Are there any video instructional tapes that show / discuss this stuff? Maybe if I could see it on some sort of a cut away diagram it might make more sense.



I have read the DC service manual on the 47re several times, but have a really hard time visualizing what it is saying.

 

[LSMITH]

Ron, how about the clutches, did you ever count them up?



Anytime you want to pull down your transmission I will provide a BONE STOCK transmission for refference... .....

 

[pwr2tow]

Originally posted by LSMITH

Ron, how about the clutches, did you ever count them up?



Anytime you want to pull down your transmission I will provide a BONE STOCK transmission for refference... .....

LSMITH,

1. yes, and there are more than YOU stated.



2. So what are we suppose to be compareing, the more parts they use, the different parts they use, the different properties in the materials they use, how many original parts are used, the tolerances in the transmission, different flow properties they use, different specs for different parts they use, too many more for me to remember. If we are going to do a tare down we might as well compare everything. If your going to provide the money to have a professional tare down both transmissions I'll take your challenge, I won't use my original installer, I found a guy 20 miles to the north of me that is alot more knowledgeable, we will let him do it. If you would like me to provide you his phone number just let me know.



Like I said before, Call the companies yourself, do some research and you will answer your own questions. Choose to believe what they say or not to, if you do than you will see, if you don't than nothing will change your mind anyhow so the point is mute.



Ron

 

[LSMITH]

OK Ron, believe what you want. I am not going to fund your education.



I have talked to all of the companies, and I am not picking on the company you chose, simply picking on the fact that a lot of people have no idea what is actually going on and are sold stuff they ALREADY HAVE. No, I am not going to mention a vendor/s in a public forum, but hopefully some guys will get some education before popping several thousand dollars for an aftermarket transmission. A little doubt could save someone a load of money, the second time is vastly more expensive.



I apologize to everyone for going off topic, but I was called out and wrongly so IMO.

 

[fest3er]

Originally posted by Stefan Kondolay ... Meaning on a perfectly set-up trans it will momentarily go into 1st gear when the band release and the clutches apply. If it is set-up perfectly you won't feel it, it will happen too fast. If 3rd takes to long to apply after the band has released you will have a flare shift If the band takes to long to release and the clutches apply you will have a bind-up, meaning both gears are applied at the same time.
...
Perfectly done 1-2-1-3
not perfect 1-2-3[/B]

Stephan,

I figured that's how the 1-2-1-3 shift pattern had to happen. Would it be fair to say that the clutch needs to start applying moments before the band starts releasing? So that by the time the clutch is making contact, the band is releasing? Or do the apply and release happen simultaneously, but so quickly that there is no over- or under-lap?

According to the SM schematics, line pressure starts releasing the front servo and applying the front clutch from a single source. It also indicates line pressure is applied to both sides of the front servo, so the band is released solely by the internal spring. . Also, the 1-2 shift valve stays in the '2' position

Granted, the schematics may not be correct and may not show everything. But, looking at them, I don't see how the front clutch and front servo could both be applied at the same time.

Now, I'm not saying it *can't* happen. , just that I don't see how it can happen according to the schematics.

Could y'all take the time to explain, in gory detail, exactly what happens in the trans during automatic shifting?

Fest3er

 

[fox]

Fest3er, as I see it and understand it, the front band starts to release and the front clutch starts to apply at the same time. The time it takes to put a small voluume of fluid in the front clutch is less than the time it takes for the spring to push the fluid out of the servo. Thus over-lap.

Some of the old cures were to add springs to the front clutch to slow its apply time , add a restrictor in its passage , more clutch clearance , a looser band setting and changes of pressure. Also, a stiffer spring in the servo helps. All of these cures have their drawbacks. There probably are more things done to it that I don't know about!

Back in the late 70's I had a dodge van that had a bind up/overlap that at light throttle would last 2 full seconds. A Transgo helped it and it lasted till I got rid of it with 133,000 miles.

 

[StakeMan]

Stefan,



Emjay says there is no problems.

ATS says there are no problems.

No tests needed.



I have no reason to doubt thier word.



BTW, the controller works great.