47RE and 47RH Front Servo

[Straight6Jeff]

My previous v-10 would demonstrate the 1-2-1-3 shift pattern perfectly. with my foot to the floor, the 1-2 would happen at 4300, then the rpms would build to 4400, then immediately jump to 5500 (going into first) hit the rev limiter, then 3rd would happen. Three different dodge dealers said this was perfectly normal. It was the "full throttle safety device". That was the so-called experts at the dealers, and they were not talking about the rev limiter. No codes were being set, and the truck was not drivable at full throttle, but everything was ok in thier eyes.



The transmission had issues. I brought it to MassDiesel. one test drive and a couple of guages had the problem nailed down.

 

[Jim Fulmer]

I brought it to MassDiesel. one test drive and a couple of guages had the problem nailed down.



Funny isn't it, there are those guages again! I have 2 of them also, funny what you will learn watching them!



Jim

 

[ATSDiesel]

1-2-?-3

Stefan Kondolay



I am going to educate you about the true shift strategy of the A-727/47-RH/E 3 or 4 speed Chrysler/Dodge transmission. I am using the basic A-727 gear set here for this description so there will be no confusion and to help eliminate the possibility of any more twisted words being thrown into the equation. The gear set in the Chrysler 727 transmission has 3 forward gears from the factory, 1st,2nd & 3rd. This is exactly what we all have behind the Cummins 5. 9L Diesel in our Pick up’s. I am building a foundation here, I want everyone to play on the same playing field. The 727 transmission has a (Rear Clutch) a (Front Brake Band) a (Front Clutch) a (Low-Roller Clutch) and a (Rear Brake Band).



Rear Clutch = Applied in all forward ranges

Front Clutch = Applied in 3rd and Reverse

Front Brake Band = 2nd gear on acceleration and deceleration

Low-Roller Clutch = 1st gear acceleration only, over runs on deceleration

Rear Brake Band = Manual low gear, acceleration, deceleration and Reverse



As you can see this is a fairly simple system.



Stefan K, you and your dad claim the transmission shifts from 1st to 2nd to 1st to 3rd. I am here to correct you, and I will prove it again for you. When this transmission shifts from 1st to 2nd gear there is no clutch or band releasing here to complicate things. All that is needed is to apply the intermediate brake band. If the intermediate brake band is applied to fast the transmission shifts hard, if it is applied to slow the shift is to soft, no disagreement here. The controversy resides around the mysterious 2-3 shift, or 2-1-3 shift in the northern world. To shift the transmission from 2nd to 3rd gear the intermediate brake band must be released and the front clutch drum must be applied, you have that part correct. There is timing involved here, if the band is released before the front clutch drum is seated the rear clutch drum will rotate backwards causing a flair (Engine Revving). If the rear clutch drum is allowed to rotate it will be stopped by the low-roller clutch. I say “if it is allowed to rotate”, the engine speed must continue to speed up at the ratio equivalent to 1st gear to seat against the low-roller clutch. Example of this: You are driving your truck at a speed of 30mph in 2nd gear and you shift to 3rd gear, if the transmission shifts to 1st gear and seats against the low-roller clutch your engine RPM would be well into the rev limiter. You can try this for your self, just pull the shift selector into manual low and watch the engine speed, the only difference here is the low-band will apply causing the low drum to stop, when the drum is stopped this is exactly the same as the drum seating against the low-roller clutch. Now, the drum does not need to seat to fell a flair between 2nd and 3rd gear. This was a worse case scenario, I say this because



Fox Quotes: Just to help the doubters of 1-2 1,3 The rear sprag quietly ratchets because the ground speed is higher that input speed. Thus no down shift is felt.



Fox, if no down shift is felt how do you describe a flair, or cut loose or what ever term we decide to use. As a transmission builder and designer for well over 20 years I have experienced shift timing problems in just about every thing from a 1964 Chrysler 904 to a 2003 Allison LCT-1000. My point is; even the smallest flair (Neutral condition) between shifts is enough to alarm any driver, it does not go un-noticed. A bind up has the same affect, when a bind up occurs there is enough forward momentum loss the vehicle will slow causing you to slide forward in your seat for a moment. I don’t think anyone out there racing would be happy with a truck making a shift back to 1st gear when they are at half track.



I want to share a few things about the Dodge transmission with all of you, there are special hydraulic circuits designed into cretin components of the hydraulic circuits to aid with shift timing or over lap concerns for any shifts that must take place with a clutch and band application happening at the same time. The intermediate servo has a smaller servo in the inter diameter of the main servo to help counteract a flair condition along with cushioning the 1-2 shift, this small servo allows some variance during the timing between this over lap period during a 2-3 shift. The other condition that is present and in our favor is what is known as band action, band action is not talked about in the repair manuals, band action is the mechanical advantage the band has over the drum because of its rotation. As the drum rotates and the band is applied the band is wrapped around the drum and the drum helps tighten it around the drum. This is by design, the manufactures designed it this way to help reduce the hydraulic pressure required by apply the drum along with helping the flair condition. This band action also has an affect with making a forced 3-2 down shift. Ever notice how the transmission does not like to make a forced 3rd to 2nd down shift as easily as it will make a 1- 2 up shift.







Clint Cannon

ATS Diesel

www.ATSDiesel.com

 

[Strick-9]

Clint,



But you did just admit that there are both flare shifts and bind up shifts. I guess you agree with Bill and the rest of the transmission industry on that one now. You must be learning.



Stefan may be busy at work, but I'll educate you a little.



Let's take your example of the truck rolling along at 30 mph in second gear.



You stated that if the truck shifted down into first before third the engine would be "well into the rev limiter. "



What you don't understand apparently is that there is NO engine braking in first gear when the shifter is in "2" or "D". The low roller clutch overruns.



So even if the second gear band completely released (now in 1st gear) the engine rpms will do whatever they want (controlled by throttle). They could stay EXACTLY the same, they could decrease or they could increase up to the RPM of 1st gear (but not higher than that). They could do all of that yet the transmission is STILL in 1st gear.



You already agreed that bind up shifts and flare shifts are possible, but you said they are ENOUGH to alarm ANY driver and could NEVER go unnoticed.



That's just ridiculous. It's obvious that bindups and flare shifts can be minor and EXTREME. On my personal truck, I've set it up to flare shift nearly 300 rpm at light throttle. I've also set it up to bind up so hard it actually nosed over the front of the truck. Those were EXTREME cases. Those wouldn't go unnoticed, but a small flair and a small bindup are nearly impossible to detect.



Weight is also a big factor that no one seems to bring up. Most of the arguing lately is over bind up. Let's go into that.



Let's break this down for the average guys. Assume you are driving your truck normally and come to stop. You press down on the brake pedal and begin slowing down nice and easy. We can all feel that, right. Now add a 20,000 lb trailer with no trailer brakes and press the brake pedal in a same manner. Will you still slow down enough to feel it? Using that as an example it's obvious that weight plays a big role in how much deceleration we can feel.



On a 2500 lb racecar it is much easier to feel bindup, but on our 7500 lb trucks the shear momentum of the trucks plow right through the bindup and it goes undetected unless REALLY severe.



But it still damages the clutches just the same.



Only a novice would go by seat of the pants feel to detect bindup in a 4 ton vehicle. A true transmission technician would use other means (pressure tests).



First you said it can't happen because of the mysterious 'snap action' valve theory that you made up. Now you say they can happen and you HAVE felt them, but you always notice them.





-Chris

 

[GLASMITHS]

GOOD POST Chris

Lets keep the information flowing. (But not BS)

 

[fox]

Sprag: a mechanical device designed to allow rotation in only one direction.

 

[Stefan Kondolay]

fester,



The topic was servos and its design to stop internal transmission leaks as their primary function. The 2-3 bind up shift was not something we were talking about on this thread, it was brought up by someone else. It almost seems a guy has to be an english major to decipher plain english if the jargon is deliberate and not meant to be understood.



I may be young but i have one of the best transmission resources at my disposal. Now a few weeks ago Clint posted that 2-3 bindup is nothing to worry about and that the snap valves protect it from happening. Now on this thread he is in a round about way acknowledging that there is a 2-3 bind up shift and that he has actually felt some.



All DTT has ever said is that we calibrate these transmissions using pressure gauges and calibration machines to deal with this issue as seat of the pants driving does not cut it.



I personally like Chris's post because it was simple and easy to understand.



As Chris put it , these trucks are too heavy to rely on seat of the pants driving. 2-3 bind up shifts are not something Bill just discovered, this is something he was taught about over 20 years ago and his dealers are trained the same way.



Gil Younger(founder of transgo) made millions trying to address this issue and pointing this out to transmission builders worldwide.



DTT took Gil Younger's work to the next level. If competitors honestly think think they can manipulate their throttle pressure and or and governor pressure so that it will have no affect on the 2-3 bind up shift we dont care.



Our responsibility is to our customers and our dealers, and they must use pressure gauges end of story.



If you guys think Bill is nuts about his proceedures you should see the special tools he has designed that his DTT builders must use.



fester, I dont think Chis was being passionate i think he was amused by Clint.

 

[dramer]

What A Joke!

Lets start with facts not fiction or (I guess you agree) comments.

First of all we do not agree with Bill and the statements you have made. I will start with the list.



Strick-9 your comments:

But you did just admit that there are both flare shifts and bind up shifts. I guess you agree with Bill and the rest of the transmission industry on that one now. You must be learning.



Clint never stated in his post about bind up shifts just if one could happen the only possible or probable cause to make it occur.



Strick-9 Your Comments:

What you don't understand apparently is that there is NO engine braking in first gear when the shifter is in "2" or "D". The low roller clutch overruns.



Clint again never stated that.



Strick-9 Your Comments:

You already agreed that bind up shifts and flare shifts are possible, but you said they are ENOUGH to alarm ANY driver and could NEVER go unnoticed.



First of all the word bind up does not exist in the English dictionary. The next point that needs to be made is the so-called bind up shifts that Bill K has been talking about. This was a bind up shift from the (governor causing it) and not an off the wall mechanical nightmare. Stop defending Bill K statement of the governor causing this anomaly. (PROVE THIS)



Strick-9 Your Comments:

At least you're making progress in the right direction, Clint.



This statement from you has been the only thing you understand.



Don

 

[Chipstien]

Re: What A Joke!

Originally posted by dramer

You are not even qualified to take out Clint’s garbage

Don

I'll bet Chris is much to busy to do such menial tasks. That is a job much better suited to you.

Fact of the matter is this thread was started to inform members of new parts that are availiable to us. As usual the thread has been completely derailed. The horse is dead, give it up.

 

[Joel Richards]

Re: I usually do "THANK" before I type

Originally posted by GLASMITHS

You might as well start praying to win the lottery - You have about the same odds on the debate coming about

Clint publically asked for a debate, with an audience. If a debate came about, it would end all of this - end of story.



So, GLASMITHS, are you answering for DTT? Ia there to be no debate? I would think that if DTT is correct in their assumption about 2-3 bind up, 1-2-1-3 shifts, etc... that they would welcome a debate, in public, with an audience, and a neutral moderator. I'm with cmonroe on this - I just want to be in the audience.



-joel

 

[SlyBones]

Don / Clint,



Here are my questions.



Yes or No is it possible for the 2-3 shift timing to be such that the front clutch drum is applied before the intermediate brake band is released?



Yes or No if the front clutch drum was applied before the intermediate brake band was release, would both 2nd gear and 3rd gear be applied at the same time?

 

[Stefan Kondolay]

CMonroe and Joel Richards,



You have made a suggestion that would be useless, as the last time my Bill and Clint got together in a public enviroment and my dad called him on some mis-information, we all remember what happened don't we. I believe it went a little something like this "Bill you could be right, I'm not the transmission expert, I'm the Converter guy" said Clint. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure you guys have video of that day too (last year May Madness). Why would he get into a debate with a guy who in public admitted not to be a transmission expert.



Don,



Are you or aren't you agreeing that you can have a bind-up in these transmissions, because your boss said there could be. You say that bind-up isn't in the dictionary, but your boss also uses this term, so who really cares, it's a term used by transmission guys so you may have never heard of it.

 

[cmonroe]

I'm sorry I hate to read between the lines, was that a yes or a no? I could not tell, and also it was hard to extract the testing equipment that you would be needing to perform your testing. Also are we to add your name to the list as a transmission expert for the debate? Last has anyone decided when you can all meet for this debate?

 

[pwr2tow]

It's amaseing with all this bind up that the automatic transmission has been around for what 40, 50 years and people are putting 200,000 plus miles on them without problems. Even if there is a bind up (which I think is an animal term for something else) is it really a problem when most people are getting 200,000 and more miles out of their transmissions. Most people trade off their vehicles long before then and most long before 100,000 miles so why should we worry about it. Even the guy who proclaimed himself the expert of all experts once said these transmissions are alot stronger than we think and it's just the TC and valve body that needs attention, oh yah, now I remember he hadn't invented the new parts yet so they weren't important then. I think this bind up thing is just another scare tactic from the aftermarket producers to get us to buy their product. Think about it.



Ron

 

[Stefan Kondolay]

Oh my god, now i have seen everything, this was a thread about aftermarket component designed to improve the durability of the factory transmission. Now a guy with an aftermarket transmission comes on and says the factory transmission is good enough and you dont need the aftermarket components as the factory one lasts long enough. If you are lucky enough to have a factory unit last with the heavier trailers and the added hp today i suppose then you dont need aftermarket components. I highly doubt the trucks of 40 and 50 years ago were adding the hp the ones today see and drive with on a daily basis. But to each his own Ron .

 

[TxDieselKid]

You guys are killing me. Here DTT makes this nifty little thing, and yet some act like it's not needed because no one else has thought of doing it yet. Who needed Thomas Edison's little invention?



I think I learn something from everyone of Chris' (Strick-9) posts.

 

[GLASMITHS]

RON - IS IT COLD UP THERE??

Is that why there are so many stock trucks with transmission problems?

I believe that all will agree that some of the 47re do last for a long

time and some---. Like Stefan said, stock truck , daily driver don't need aftermarket trannys. Let PROTURBO do a cheap over-haul when it is time and keep going.



If you would re-read all these posts, you will see that normally there is not a problem with the bind up, as long as the transmission is set up right. And this is what BillK does not want his customers to be able to do, and that is to cause a problem in the transmission for which he will have to pay for. That sounds reasonable to me.



Why don't you e-mail TRANSGO and tell them that they are lying to their customers, and all the stuff you have said about DTT. That is a good challange. Tell everyone out there that they are liars and are cheating their customers.

 

[pwr2tow]

Originally posted by Stefan Kondolay

Oh my god, now i have seen everything, this was a thread about aftermarket component designed to improve the durability of the factory transmission.

I don't think you have seen everything, I'am sure your company will come up with something else that needs fixing or not fixing.



TxDieselkid,

Why would we need to reinvent something that already works just fine.



GLASMITH,

The challenge I am still waiting for is the one from the other SMITH to carry through on, his challenge yet he backs out of.



To you three, I like how you take someones statement and twist things around or take statements from other posts and add them here, in my post I was referring to the end all problems servo, but of course you guys knew that, at least you pretend pretty good to know everything so you should, Right. Was I referring to the whole transmission, what is this thread about, the servo or the whole transmission. You just keep maken them there parts that everybody just can not do without.



You boys don't need any help makeing me look stupid, I can do that all on my own, or is it the other way around, I get sooo confused by all the double talk going on.



Looks like I made the hair stand up on a few of the old dogs backs with that statement.



gerrrrr, snap, growl, better find a different transmission ummm I mean stick to tinkle on.



Ron



Play nice now boys I'am just playing with your minds, or at least making you think.

 

[Chipstien]

Ron, if you re-read your first post you will see you never mentioned the servo. You said transmission, do you think we can read your mind? As for the servo, find me the statement in this thread that says you have to have this device. Not there. It is just another thing to make a transmission more bulletproof.

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

Here we go yet again. Sorry that I have not seen this thread earlier but my focus has been on the technical problems we've been having with our co-lo facility and the upcoming move.



I've edited and deleted a BUNCH of posts from this thread. Several strikes have been handed out. Personal attacks will NOT be tolerated on the site. IF you are attacked please report it to a moderator and we will deal with the situation appropriately. If you choose to fire back then you will be dealt with as well.



Now please keep this thread on topic and technical. Re-read what you have written before you hit the Submit button. If what you've written will not add to the information available on the thread and will only serve to turn up the heat - DO NOT HIT SUBMIT.



-Steve St. Laurent

Lead Moderator