Did you replace your torque convertor when you got your transmission work done? why?
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47RE and 47RH Front Servo
- Thread starter Boldt's Wagon
- Start Date
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Did you replace your torque convertor when you got your transmission work done? why?
Absolutely!!!! Couldn't have said it better myself.
And as for my interpretation of Ron's statement about 200,000 miles on a transmission - I think that that if in fact there is this "bind up", how would any transmission last that long - with massive HP or stock? Wouldn't there be damage done to the transmission every time there was a 2-3 shift? And if that were the case, how could they ever last 200,000 miles, and if in fact they lasted 200,000 miles, those transmissions would be pretty much bulletproof without the need for aftermarket builders.
Looking back, and not using names as to protect the innocent as well as the guilty, the bind up issue did seem to creep up on these threads about the same time a product was released, a product designed to allow the transmission to shift at different intervals? A product not available directly to a certain vendor. The product didn't even make it onto a certain vendor's transmission before there was a "problem" with it according to that vendor.
Stephan,
Yes, we do... . If memory serves, and usually it does, somebody (not Clint) was physically removed from the discussion - in front of hundreds of people.
And speaking of mis-information, during that discussion at MM, Clint said that Bill was the day-to-day transmission builder. Clint then said that he did not build transmissions EVERY day - he has builders that do the day-to-day building. Clint went on to say that the transmissions were engineered by him, as well as the TC's. He never said that he was not a transmission expert. So please, next time, get YOUR information straight before you quote somebody. It's better for everyone that way, and avoids "mis-information" being strewn about.
I truely believe that a civil debate could in fact still happen, IF that somebody were to act more civil himself. So, on that positive note, to reitterate cmonroe's questions, is there a date and place that you have in mind, are you (Stephan) going to be on the panel of experts along with Bill and Clint, and what test equipment do you require to prove your point(s)?
Thanks,
-joel
Joel or ATS, could you please tell me how a 2-3 bind up has anything to do with a front servo. Hold on, let me check the title of this thread... ... ... hmmmm seems the topic is 47RE and 47RH Front Servo . There are 20 pages on this bind up topic at DTT's Forum. Give it a rest. It is apparent that you guys are trying to get this thread closed so it will go away... ... . I wonder why. 
As for this bind up issue, No one has said that bind up is a problem on a stock transmission. Only that it "might" be an issue when you manipulate the govenor circuit . By now every one knows Bill's stance on this issue, it's old news. The only people it effects are those with DTT transmissions. It seems that the majority of those with DTT transmission could care less about this other vendors controller since we can get basically the same thing for less money from Bill. Yeah you will post that there are numerous differences between the two but the average Joe or Jane that looks at the specs for the two will see that the features that matter are the same. I for one think that being able to change the shift points are unnecessary, but there are others that think it is cool. More power to ya.
Rather than wining and crying about it, why don't you get these out in the real world and let the results speak for themselves. If it is as good as you say it is then we will here nothing but good about it, right. However if you do want to bring up this bind-up issue some more, do us all a favor and post about it in it's own thread since this thread is to learn about the new Front Servo for the 47 RE and RH transmission.
Thanks.
As for this bind up issue, No one has said that bind up is a problem on a stock transmission. Only that it "might" be an issue when you manipulate the govenor circuit . By now every one knows Bill's stance on this issue, it's old news. The only people it effects are those with DTT transmissions. It seems that the majority of those with DTT transmission could care less about this other vendors controller since we can get basically the same thing for less money from Bill. Yeah you will post that there are numerous differences between the two but the average Joe or Jane that looks at the specs for the two will see that the features that matter are the same. I for one think that being able to change the shift points are unnecessary, but there are others that think it is cool. More power to ya.
Rather than wining and crying about it, why don't you get these out in the real world and let the results speak for themselves. If it is as good as you say it is then we will here nothing but good about it, right. However if you do want to bring up this bind-up issue some more, do us all a favor and post about it in it's own thread since this thread is to learn about the new Front Servo for the 47 RE and RH transmission.
Thanks.
Well, chipstien, look on the first page of this thread, about 7 posts down -
So, according to Bill, who trains all of his installers personally, the servo obviously has something to do with the bind up shifting.
No, you give it a rest. Now, can nobody answer my questions? Are you afraid of a public debate happening? Shall we add you as one of the transmission experts? Are you done wondering?
No, bill said that bind up was a manufacturer "feature" (feature is my word, not his) for drivability.
Seems you are correct!
They're out there in the real world, and EVERYTHING YOU HEAR is good. Who's really whining and crying here, anyway?????????
... and what the servo does. According to DTT (since Bill trained inarush76 himself - Bill said he trains ALL installers/dealers himself) - it improves "bind up". So, a public debate on all of this seems in order, don't you think?
Thanks, and have a better day. Feel free to PM me so as not to take this thread "off topic" or get it shut down.
-joel
If James(inarush76) said it, I can tell you it's as good as gold. If you have never met James, don't question his integrety. James will NEVER lead you astray. James will be doing my transmission work... . shortly.
Andrew
I want to take a personal time out and thank the moderator for not shutting this thread down so it can continue on with the debate so we can get the things out in the open once and for all, hopefully.
When things on the tdr went blank last night I was so mad I was personally going to ask for my membership back, I just renewed it this month. The reason was because every time things are not going good for a certain company they and their supporters come on here and start makeing personal attacks against people to get them rialed enough to say things that are indicative of the debate at hand.
Thank you moderators, and thank you for deleteing the posts that were defaceing on both sides, (yes even the ones I wrote). You are right, There is no room for that kind of garbage on the TDR.
Sincerely,
Ron
When things on the tdr went blank last night I was so mad I was personally going to ask for my membership back, I just renewed it this month. The reason was because every time things are not going good for a certain company they and their supporters come on here and start makeing personal attacks against people to get them rialed enough to say things that are indicative of the debate at hand.
Thank you moderators, and thank you for deleteing the posts that were defaceing on both sides, (yes even the ones I wrote). You are right, There is no room for that kind of garbage on the TDR.
Sincerely,
Ron
The servo piston is now part of our transmisison rebuild, it is a standard component included in the parts list we use. The primary reason for the servo is quite simple , it is to stop leakage now and prevent future leakage. Its that simple. This has been in the design and testing phase for 8 months. That is why we offered this product to our existing customers that have had work done in the last 8 months in our shop at no labor charge when they do their service . We feel it is worth while putting in.
If guys want to pressure test their trucks to check their leakage all they have to do is do a pressure test in the front servo and compare it to 4th gear piston . They should match. The transmission should be tested in od at a given rpm, whether its 1800 or 2100 doesnt matter as long as the comparison is at the same rpm and in 4th gear .
For accuracy It is best to use one pressure gauge for both tests. The transmission should also be at full operating temperature.
For those of you that dont feel you need to pressure test your transmissions that is your decision. For us at DTT it is mandatory
as we raise the oem factory pressures so we feel it is appropriate to check what we just did .
As we pressure test all valve bodies before they ever leave our shop, our transmisisons are independently pressure tested on on the bench and then again once they are installed in the vehicle. If others don't feel they need to use these time consuming proceedures we dont care. This is mandatory for DTT transmissions. Since most companies charge approx. the same labor rate the only people that are affect financially is DTT. I guess it means less profit in our pocket . Most companies are charging approx 2 1/2 hours to install a valve body, i know Bill can do it in 45 minutes, Vinnie and Darrin our in shop technicians can do in and hour , even i can do in in less than an hour and a half if we skip all the before and after testing. But it is our policy to pressure test before the truck gets on the hoist, and after it gets off the hoist. Kick down cable has to be checked before it goes on the hoist and after it comes on the hoist . A voltage regulator is installed on pin # 31 , all these steps we include as part of the valve body proceedure.
All of these precautionary steps we do are included in the 2 1/2 hours above I was discussing and are done to ensure there is no internal leakage and the pressures are where we set them on the bench. The Chrysler valve body does not use any gaskets where it bolts on the transmisison so we know it is imperative to pressure test before and after to verify things are as they shoud be.
People can make mistakes , a pressure gauge will not do that . It is just a tool nothing more nothing less.
Bill teaches his dealers and shows them how a transmission lives and dies by pressure. It only makes sense to use pressure gauges. It weird how guys seem to understand that putting an oil pressure gauge on their engines is critical but on but dont see the significance of putting a pressure gauge on their transmisison.
Strick-9 spent 3 months at DTT further studying this transmission, he thought he came up here to learn about DTT magic, what he did learn was that this transmission lives and dies by pressures.
Those of you guys that want to think these are gimicks so be it, our pump stator rings are custom designed and exclusive to us , why?: designed to assist leakage and wear.
Input shaft rings are different than oem why , to address leakage and wear. This is a really nice gimick, because Chrysler has started to use it also in their 48 RE transmissions and allison has been using these for years.
DTT Billet Piston, gimick? These were designed inpart to also help address internal leakage and wear.
DTT Front Servo & Custom Sealing rings gimick? How about to help address internal transmission leakage.
DTT Accumulator Piston : To help address internal leakage and wear. We have not talked about this before so you may not know about it.
Granted guys can call all of these components gimicks or scare tactics what ever they want, it doesnt change the fact that they are included in the DTT transmissions.
As horse power # 's keep going up and trailers keep getting heavier, we have to progress forward. Our true competitors are companies like Diesel Dynamics, Edge, PDR, Mitchell ect. When these guys quit raising the hp bar we too can settle down on the transmission. Until then our transmission technology has to keep moving forward to address the hp and trailer weights.
So for those of you that think these are gimicks and scare tactics consider this, these products are a few of the aftermarket components we designed and put in our transmission to handle the demand these trucks place on them. They are not add ons that cost extra. If parts like these were not included in the full transmission then what pro turbo99 said would be justified in the comments that he made.
Ultimately you guys are the ones that have to decide if what you are getting inside the transmisison justifies the opinions expressed here.
If guys want to pressure test their trucks to check their leakage all they have to do is do a pressure test in the front servo and compare it to 4th gear piston . They should match. The transmission should be tested in od at a given rpm, whether its 1800 or 2100 doesnt matter as long as the comparison is at the same rpm and in 4th gear .
For accuracy It is best to use one pressure gauge for both tests. The transmission should also be at full operating temperature.
For those of you that dont feel you need to pressure test your transmissions that is your decision. For us at DTT it is mandatory
as we raise the oem factory pressures so we feel it is appropriate to check what we just did .
As we pressure test all valve bodies before they ever leave our shop, our transmisisons are independently pressure tested on on the bench and then again once they are installed in the vehicle. If others don't feel they need to use these time consuming proceedures we dont care. This is mandatory for DTT transmissions. Since most companies charge approx. the same labor rate the only people that are affect financially is DTT. I guess it means less profit in our pocket . Most companies are charging approx 2 1/2 hours to install a valve body, i know Bill can do it in 45 minutes, Vinnie and Darrin our in shop technicians can do in and hour , even i can do in in less than an hour and a half if we skip all the before and after testing. But it is our policy to pressure test before the truck gets on the hoist, and after it gets off the hoist. Kick down cable has to be checked before it goes on the hoist and after it comes on the hoist . A voltage regulator is installed on pin # 31 , all these steps we include as part of the valve body proceedure.
All of these precautionary steps we do are included in the 2 1/2 hours above I was discussing and are done to ensure there is no internal leakage and the pressures are where we set them on the bench. The Chrysler valve body does not use any gaskets where it bolts on the transmisison so we know it is imperative to pressure test before and after to verify things are as they shoud be.
People can make mistakes , a pressure gauge will not do that . It is just a tool nothing more nothing less.
Bill teaches his dealers and shows them how a transmission lives and dies by pressure. It only makes sense to use pressure gauges. It weird how guys seem to understand that putting an oil pressure gauge on their engines is critical but on but dont see the significance of putting a pressure gauge on their transmisison.
Strick-9 spent 3 months at DTT further studying this transmission, he thought he came up here to learn about DTT magic, what he did learn was that this transmission lives and dies by pressures.
Those of you guys that want to think these are gimicks so be it, our pump stator rings are custom designed and exclusive to us , why?: designed to assist leakage and wear.
Input shaft rings are different than oem why , to address leakage and wear. This is a really nice gimick, because Chrysler has started to use it also in their 48 RE transmissions and allison has been using these for years.
DTT Billet Piston, gimick? These were designed inpart to also help address internal leakage and wear.
DTT Front Servo & Custom Sealing rings gimick? How about to help address internal transmission leakage.
DTT Accumulator Piston : To help address internal leakage and wear. We have not talked about this before so you may not know about it.
Granted guys can call all of these components gimicks or scare tactics what ever they want, it doesnt change the fact that they are included in the DTT transmissions.
As horse power # 's keep going up and trailers keep getting heavier, we have to progress forward. Our true competitors are companies like Diesel Dynamics, Edge, PDR, Mitchell ect. When these guys quit raising the hp bar we too can settle down on the transmission. Until then our transmission technology has to keep moving forward to address the hp and trailer weights.
So for those of you that think these are gimicks and scare tactics consider this, these products are a few of the aftermarket components we designed and put in our transmission to handle the demand these trucks place on them. They are not add ons that cost extra. If parts like these were not included in the full transmission then what pro turbo99 said would be justified in the comments that he made.
Ultimately you guys are the ones that have to decide if what you are getting inside the transmisison justifies the opinions expressed here.
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Joel,
Bill K is the only one authorized to speak for DTT on how to calibrate and pressure test for bind-up and what tools to use, while it is true his dealers are personally trained they have non-disclosure agreements they must adhere to. So tauntng or challenging his dealers is a waste of time.
If you still want to persue this avenue you know how to find Bill, in order to respect the request of the moderator we will not get into this here.
Bill K is the only one authorized to speak for DTT on how to calibrate and pressure test for bind-up and what tools to use, while it is true his dealers are personally trained they have non-disclosure agreements they must adhere to. So tauntng or challenging his dealers is a waste of time.
If you still want to persue this avenue you know how to find Bill, in order to respect the request of the moderator we will not get into this here.
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Good post Stefan. It is really great to know all the trick parts that go into DTT transmissions.
Joel, since you completely twisted my post around I thought I should clarify what I meant. Bill's stance on the warrantee will only affect DTT users. Bind-up "can" happen in "any" transmission when you manipulate the govenor circuit.
Get your facts straight before you change a post around to better suit your claim.
Joel, since you completely twisted my post around I thought I should clarify what I meant. Bill's stance on the warrantee will only affect DTT users. Bind-up "can" happen in "any" transmission when you manipulate the govenor circuit.
Get your facts straight before you change a post around to better suit your claim.
Twisted? I think not! However, clarification is always good. Thank you.
So I hear, now I'm just waiting for proof...
Originally posted by Chipstien
Get your facts straight before you change a post around to better suit your claim.
I just answered the points you made, in the order you made them. Perhaps you should clarify what you mean by "it" next time - then we'll all know what you're talking about ("it" without propper context is too Clinton like, don't you think?)
Thanks so much.
-joel
Chipstien,
It doesnt matter how you phrase it, trust me
Joel wants to talk to you our customer , me , james, chris. As i said before Joel, it's Bill you need to talk to.
It doesnt matter how you phrase it, trust me Joel wants to talk to you our customer , me , james, chris. As i said before Joel, it's Bill you need to talk to.
Stephan,
Quit answering for your dad then - let him answer me directly if it's that way... He knows where I am...
I await HIS response...
-joel
P. S. I took this into PM's for you, and you bring it out here again - you are simply amazing - I see that keeping with the rhetoric is how you get your jollies, and your sales...
Quit answering for your dad then
- let him answer me directly if it's that way... He knows where I am... I await HIS response...
-joel
P. S. I took this into PM's for you, and you bring it out here again - you are simply amazing - I see that keeping with the rhetoric is how you get your jollies, and your sales...
My dad can't post on this site because he's no longer a member. So if you are thinking that he could answer here and just isn't that's not the case.
I don't know what you are waiting for an answer for anyway, no one from ATS has issued any challenge.
I will not discuss anything offline with you, because then it is he said she said. Words get twisted, feelings get hurt, nothing is accomplished.
As I've promised the moderators that I wouldn't get into it again, if you want to get into you can go to our site, that way it stays out in the open.
I don't know what you are waiting for an answer for anyway, no one from ATS has issued any challenge.
I will not discuss anything offline with you, because then it is he said she said. Words get twisted, feelings get hurt, nothing is accomplished.
As I've promised the moderators that I wouldn't get into it again, if you want to get into you can go to our site, that way it stays out in the open.
Stephan,
Come on I've seen you post before and that lenghty post you made is too professional and technical for you to have written. Bill is answering these things through you, I can not prove it but If Bill has such a tight rein on everyone I'am sure he wouldn't let you comment without his approval. Physical proof, no, professional intuition, Yes.
Just answer Joels question and prove him wrong.
Ron
Alright guys, Stefan has said until the challenge is made from ATS itself there will be no debate, so lets leave him out of this and see if there will be a challenge. I along with Joel just want to know the truth. We are not trying to blow things out of the water, we just so happen to be as passionate about our trucks as the other TDR members. I honestly do not understand the 1-2-1-3 shifting others have spoke of. I don't see how it could happen without a band being to tight myself. I'm not saying it can't happen, I just want the truth. This is important to me because my next project will include an automatic. Sorry if anyones feelings got hurt over this, but again I want to see the debate. I don't think there is any reason why Clint and Bill could not be civil to one another.
Ron ,
I am not a transmisison expert, and yes i do get some of the answers from Bill but not all of them. I have had a transmission manual thown at my head quite a few times and told to look it up myself. I also learn a lot when his dealers are up here for training but i do not build my own transmissions. I can change my own od unit and i have done valve body changes ,services, and i do all my electrical work on my truck. I have been tearing down and cleaning transmissions for my dad as long as i can remember.
cmonroe,
By sheer co-incidence our race car engine builder Jim Behnke is in our shop right now, , he himself drag races a 67 Cuda that runs low 10's, iwhen i mentioned to him that there are people out there that think that 2-3 bindup does not exist he just laughed.
He said to tell you guys all you have to do is go to an NHRA bracket race weekend , and since NHRA rules now require all race cars to be warmed up on jack stands just watch the rear tires when the Chrysler guys cars shifts from 2-3. You have to get there early for the warm up as they only do the jack stand warm ups in the morning , go to the Dodge pit areas and watch .
I am kind of disappointed in myself that i did not think of the analogy first as i was raised at the track and seen this happen hundreds of times.
cmonroe,
This is actually how Jim Behnke and my dad became friends, the company that built his trans brake which is turbo action , a good company my dad also uses for drag car trans brakes they kept telling Jim to loosen off the front band that he had it set too tight.
Finally Jim came and talked to and explained what was going on and Bill fixed his transbrake( valve body ). Per Bill while bind up can be caused by clutch pack clearances and band adjustments it can also be caused by the valve body. Remember the valve body also controls the front drum and the 2nd gear band. We do not take any chances on the mechanics of these transmissions that is why Bill designed a special tool that he uses and his qualified dealers must use : As Bill has over 20 years of experience and his dealers obviously do not he needed a tool that gauranteed the specs would be the same whether they came to him or to one of his trained dealers.
#ad
I am not a transmisison expert, and yes i do get some of the answers from Bill but not all of them. I have had a transmission manual thown at my head quite a few times and told to look it up myself. I also learn a lot when his dealers are up here for training but i do not build my own transmissions. I can change my own od unit and i have done valve body changes ,services, and i do all my electrical work on my truck. I have been tearing down and cleaning transmissions for my dad as long as i can remember.
cmonroe,
By sheer co-incidence our race car engine builder Jim Behnke is in our shop right now, , he himself drag races a 67 Cuda that runs low 10's, iwhen i mentioned to him that there are people out there that think that 2-3 bindup does not exist he just laughed.
He said to tell you guys all you have to do is go to an NHRA bracket race weekend , and since NHRA rules now require all race cars to be warmed up on jack stands just watch the rear tires when the Chrysler guys cars shifts from 2-3. You have to get there early for the warm up as they only do the jack stand warm ups in the morning , go to the Dodge pit areas and watch .
I am kind of disappointed in myself that i did not think of the analogy first as i was raised at the track and seen this happen hundreds of times.
cmonroe,
This is actually how Jim Behnke and my dad became friends, the company that built his trans brake which is turbo action , a good company my dad also uses for drag car trans brakes they kept telling Jim to loosen off the front band that he had it set too tight.
Finally Jim came and talked to and explained what was going on and Bill fixed his transbrake( valve body ). Per Bill while bind up can be caused by clutch pack clearances and band adjustments it can also be caused by the valve body. Remember the valve body also controls the front drum and the 2nd gear band. We do not take any chances on the mechanics of these transmissions that is why Bill designed a special tool that he uses and his qualified dealers must use : As Bill has over 20 years of experience and his dealers obviously do not he needed a tool that gauranteed the specs would be the same whether they came to him or to one of his trained dealers.
#ad
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Excuse me? Clint directly said to you (paraphrasing) - "... now's your chance to educate me. I suggest a public debate with your dad and me, in front of an audience... " - what part of that isn't a challenge? The post has since been moderated out by Steve, but we all saw it, including you.
I'll try my hardest not to hurt your feelings. I promise!
-joel
Joel,
You are good at re-wording things, that's not how it was put.
However I was asked not to get into it with you, Steve (moderator) thought it was baseball season and gave me a strike and I thought it was a homer.
You are good at re-wording things, that's not how it was put.
However I was asked not to get into it with you, Steve (moderator) thought it was baseball season and gave me a strike and I thought it was a homer.
I too have a question about the 1-2,1-3 shift. I am still waiting for my other questions to be answered.
I agree with cmonoe a properly run debate with a moderator and all could be civil. It would be controlled so no free-for-all's could take place.
His post here brings a good quesion though, what is going to be debated? Seems that some are talking about 1-2, 1-3 shifts, some are talking about 2-3 bind shifts. ( this is not the same ) Some claim they dont even exist, some believe they exist and only claim the governor circuit cant cause it, others believe the whole thing, others are still looking in the dictionary.
First thing that needs to happen is an agreement of the exact details to be discussed.
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Issue 128 – Digital Version
Digital Magazines
FREE!
TDR Test Drive - Digital Edition
Renew
Subscribe
Gift Subscriptions
Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
Buyer's Guides
Ram Diagnostic Trouble Codes
The Perfect Collection
The Perfect Collection Vol. II
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Dodge/Cummins Historical Overview
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What Makes Us Tick?
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