47RE and 47RH Front Servo

[Rob Thomas]

Originally posted by Steve St. Laurent

Now please keep this thread on topic and technical. Re-read what you have written before you hit the Submit button. If what you've written will not add to the information available on the thread and will only serve to turn up the heat - DO NOT HIT SUBMIT.



-Steve St. Laurent

Lead Moderator

Geeez , my little puppy dog (7 months) learns what he's been told faster than you guys. Maybe you too need shock collars.



Later, Rob

 

[dramer]

Taking The Challenge

We have taken this challenge already, unknown why we have to re-visit this issue. ATS has backed Joel Richards to accept Bill K theory of the governor causing a bind up shift.

ATS Diesel is stepping forward to challenge this up front. We all know that a transmission can have a mechanical issue that could cause a apply problem but this could not happen in a transmission that has been built properly. This condition cannot be caused from zero to equal line pressure at the governor. The single apply pressure from the 2-3 shift valve feeds pressure to the release side of the 2nd gear servo along with applying the 3rd clutch drum equally. ATS fully supports the Emjay engineering controller (this controller will not cause this governor condition). ATS diesel will be more than willing to support and hold a public debate on hydraulic theory at May Madness (if this vender would like). Clint Cannon would be willing to support open questions on this condition.

Thanks



Don Ramer

 

[GLASMITHS]

Don please expand on that statement.

Questions:



1. Are you saying that an owner, with the supplied software cannot manipulate the setting to a point of harming the transmission. OR



2. Did you mean that it Emjay Controller would not harm the transmission if it was properly set-up by an approved installer?



Thank you for your reply

 

[SlyBones]

Re: Taking The Challenge

Originally posted by dramer

We all know that a transmission can have a mechanical issue that could cause a apply problem but this could not happen in a transmission that has been built properly. This condition cannot be caused from zero to equal line pressure at the governor. The single apply pressure from the 2-3 shift valve feeds pressure to the release side of the 2nd gear servo along with applying the 3rd clutch drum equally. Don Ramer

Thank you Don, This does answer one of my questions. I still have a few in this area. One is the meaning of a properly built transmission. And I mean no flames towards anyone. My question is about whether a factory stock transmission can have this problem? and/or we are referring to aftermarket transmission builder(s) doing the right thing and eliminating a factory weak spot?



The second question that I had earlier is related to the shift. It believe reading this post that all agree on the part about the single apply pressure from the shift valve feeding both the 2nd gear servo and the clutch drum equally. As even Clint pointed out there is timing in volved. These two items are in a race. If the clutch drum wins there is an overlap condition. If the servo wins there is the flair condition ( for lack of a better term. Not trying to imply the engine is over reving or any of that ). OK the question, what gaurantee's the band release always wins?



I believe that one of these two always has to win the race. At this point of my understanding is it could be either one, but there must be a winner and a loser. Even down to the nano second, one is beating the other. So what makes sure the release band always wins, and what is an acceptable margin of victory? I am assuming that if the band released seconds before the clutch applied that would be bad. and if it happens with . 0x seconds this is good. What is the threshold between a good one and a bad one.

 

[dramer]

Extended info

Glasmiths:

The operator or owner could not cause this condition at all from the software or the unit it self even if the controller would malfunction. To get into trouble with this unit I could not even see it as an option at all. The operation of this controller and the transmission is a natural design no different than the PCM. You have adjustability this gives you access that’s very well controlled.

The governor is like an electronic controlled speedometer. The best way to describe this would be by adjusting the speedometer head reading to vary shift points. This is the best way to visualize it in simple terms. I will see if I can upload some software to take a look at for all of you. This might take some work but I will commit my self on this. As for harming the transmission the answer is no. The time during my day is long and I will see if a screen print option would work for this information. I will also contact Mike at Emjay to get this permission for the software up load for the TDR.

A customer with basic mechanical skills should not have any problem installing this unit under most circumstances. The wiring could be slightly intimidating but that would depend on the person’s level of comfort. Using a shop or person trained to install this I would not think necessary. Again that would depend on someone’s comfort skill level or commitment.



Slybones: your question will take some typing and thought to answer! Very good question this one will make me think the latter of path in plain terms. The best way I know would be a fluid chart for review to show the path and flow. I think this would help many people as well to see the basics that this circuit works from. Again please know that I will see if I can print screen a chart and draw the path so most of you can see this. The Internet is a little hard at times without using reference ability. I will have to draw some paths due to the charts are in color. They have black and white but for some people it will be confusing I think. Both of you have asked the best questions that I have ever had and this drives me to work to help with the answers for all of you. We are just like all of you and because I work for ATS I to have many things that I learn regarding new technology on transmissions. The transmissions change just like computers and gets very difficult to stay up on. Yes the basics are the same however some transmissions have many different parts. I hope this will help for the present time it’s the best I can do on short notice. The Dodge 47RE has stayed very basic as far as fluid circuits. So I don’t see this to be a problem. Chrysler put many safety circuits in place so problems such as this would not happen.



Don Ramer

 

[BigUgly]

A little off topic here. But this one goes to Rob and Steve. Ain't it funny? Many folks want this thread to be moderated, yet when the moderator does his job and "moderates" some stuff out. Then, other folks start complaining about censorship .

Can't win for losing! My personal opinion is that I don't like for threads to be pared down any. When I see an angry response to something, I want to know what ticked that guy off ! Oh well! I must admit that I'm probably in the minority here and I agree that these threads should be pared down to make the majority happy. I have seen a few threads remarkedbly like this one with NO paring down, they pretty much boiled down to personal attacks withing the first few posts. After that, it's just 20+ pages of :-{} . And, I'm sorry to say, I was involved .

Well, at least it's entertaining, may not be real informative, but it is entertaining.

Josiah

 

[SlyBones]

Don, dont go to any big trouble for me. I would not understand it all anyways, or remember it. For the most part as simple "parts x-y-z" insure the band release happens before the clutch apply, thus preventing 2-3 overlap/bind shifts. We at ATS like to see the band release and clutch apply happen with in . X seconds of each other for optimum shift quality and smoothness. Beyond . N seconds there is too much time between the two, and some of that stuff Clint was talking about will result.



This would be good enough for me.