5th wheel towing questions - new to this

[Lynx0849]

The plan is to replace my 1500 with a gently used 3500 ctd next year. Then when DW retires in a couple of years, buy a gently used toy hauler and go see this great country.
We want a toy hauler we can live in sometimes with the garage occupied (like when raining and it isn't safe to unload).

So, I am reading everything I can to learn as much as I can beforehand. This forum and others are great. Thanks for any insights.

I tow a utility trailer with my motorcycles & a 16' flat deck with bobcat often enough. I have a Class A CDL so towing doesn't bother me. However, RVs always have much more behind the trailer wheels than commercial semi trailers do.

In no particular order...
Is there some reason for the 20-25% of GVWR pin weight vs say 2000lbs? I mean, the makers can make the weight anything they want by positioning the axels.
I get why at least 10% is on the hitch for a TT but not the why for 5rs.
I just like understanding why. I am sure there is a good reason.

I understand that the propane is included in the dry weight of 5th wheel RVs. Does that include toy haulers? What about gen sets? We plan to boondock sometimes.

Thinking of a 5th wheel like a balance scale it is clear that the pin weight will vary up (or maybe even down) depending on where stuff is loaded in the trailer.
On a toy hauler is there some general wisdom from folks who have em on the pin weight after loading some toys? In my case I have 2 motorcycles @ 900lbs each.

We will be looking at units in the 14k GVWR range so we could tow it with a 3500 SRW model. The truck is my daily driver and where I live now a dually would not be practical. In a few years I plan to move and then a DRW model might work and toy hauler 2 could be a bit bigger.

Besides the hitches that convert a 5th wheel to a goose neck sort of thing, are there reputable hitches made with lighter weight materials? It would seem that the base & picture frame could be Aluminum.

Ok, enough for now - maybe more than enough... I didn't want to start a bunch of threads.

 

[Tuesdak]

Best advice is to go small. One more time as you are looking at the 44' monster 5th wheel, NO! This is supposed to be a fun tour rather than work of attempting to park a huge 40'+ RV let alone how much that limits where you can go or stay. After all it sounds like you day job is just that...

We started by asking "Where specifically do we want to go?" Our answer was public lands and campgrounds not RV resorts. This made a genset a requirement and clearly size matters for places we wanted to go. OTH RV parks do not need a genset as they come with hookups and size is not a factor like it is for the cheaper public campgrounds. So we started looking for a max 27' RV with a generator that wasn't a toyhauler. For example from our bucket list 27' is the largest you want to go at the North Rim Grand Canyon not because they don't have a max 40' space, but, try and reserve a 40' space: not going to happen. ( 27' is not generous being total length tongue to rear bumper. ) You can have some luck reserving a 27' and smaller space early in the season. Yes, it's difficult to find a smaller RV. The rare ones have generator options: only some models offer a generator prep package. Most 5th wheels can have a genset installed. Toyhaulers have gensets all day long, but, lack the comfort of a travel trailer esp. if you don't need a toyhauler. Why tow the empty cargo space?

You should consider getting a generator prep package and the obtaining an older twin cylinder LP 1800 RPM generator. The 3600 RPM gensets are louder and about all they make nowadays. (You trade some fuel use in the 1800 RPM flatheads for quiet vs. the OHV 3600 RPM units.) The cheap construction gensets are outlawed in some places and simply too loud for most settings.

Dry weights are DRY. Empty propane tanks, empty water tanks, no batteries, no accessories/options like AC. If they could get away with leaving the air out of the tires the RV manufacturers and dealers would do it! Some like Arctic Fox require non-optional packages that add significant weight. Some now put an as shipped weight stickers in a cabinet on the RV - look for it.

Quality of the RV itself is something that will simply disgust you. Plenty of cheap garbage out there that frankly have a hard time not pealing the entire damned roof off during the trip from the factory to the dealer. Nevermind the sloppy fit and finish even Airstream now suffer from, but not as bad as the low priced units. This is something your budget and tolerance for workmanship has to decide. FWIW Airstream is about the best made out there and a distant second would be Bigfoot, Northern Lite, Arctic Fox, Nash, and Lance.

Tour all the RV brands and distance to get one should not be a big factor. The floorplans and options are generally all online. Decide what you have to have and then don't compromise on those items. A common "broom closet" uncomfortable throne room was something we weren't going to put up with. The larger ones just had to put storage to have your shoulder against something as well as pinned into the shower curtain while on the throne. Lance Trailers are a good example of claustrophobic although they have a couple truck campers with good sized throne rooms.

After all the RV is 3 things: meals on wheels, hotel, and a porta potty. No reason what so ever it needs to fail on any of the big three...

Choose the RV before the tow rig. Use this luxury you have otherwise you have to match the RV to what the tow rig can do.

One last thing: RV's have nothing to do with CDL. The door sticker on your truck IS the final authority of what it can tow as far as the jury and insurance company is concerned. Do not exceed any rating. It will be much more fun to drive and handle as well.

 

[GAmes]

I've never owned a toyhauler, but I have towed a lot of them empty. I hated every one of them because they are built front heavy. However, I finally ditched the Timbrens and installed air bags, but haven't bbeen assigned a TH since. Perhaps they would make the towing better.

A lot of states require a class A drivers license when the GCWR exceeds 26,000, TX being one of them. With the higher GVWR of the newer duellies, exceeding 26,000 GCWR would happen pretty easily. For that reason your CDL-A could be a requirement down the road.

 

[Killer223]

toy haulers have the axles farther back, so make sure you have the biks as far back as you can get them, then make use of a local CAT scales after it's loaded to see if you need to move the load around.
i got a awesome deal on a used 5er, it looks longer than it really is. 33' and rides like crap till it has our toys in the back.
our generator is very quiet, it's onan something or other,
as for pin weight, i think the rule is 15-20%.
living in the west, we boon dock, i've never camped in a camground. ever.
don't be scared to look for a used one.



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[Northfork]

We tow a 5'er toyhauler that is in your ballpark for specs. The pic below was taken with my old truck, we haven't towed with the Dodge yet but will soon.
I think the 20-25% number is used to cover their behinds with the axles they use. If it really bugging you you should ask a manufacturer. Read all the fine print on the weights, dry weights can go so far as to mean no curtains, etc. We had a Arctic Fox Cabover for awhile that was listed at 3300ish dry.
That was absolutely laughable. Not even close.
I went on line and they weigh the thing less curtains, less a whole bunch of stuff. No genny, no propane, etc.
You can tow a 5er of this size with a SWR truck but having done both there is no question that a dually is a more stable platform.
The toyhaulers are designed to be pulled with the toy bay having weight in it. Balance is achieved with weight in the garage. My coach is tandem axle, we carry a Polaris Razor XP1000 in it, I roll it forward a bit and tie it down with th front wheels over the rear trailer axle. We put chairs, ice chests, etc behind the Rzr. It pulls just fine. We boondock almost exclusively, the coach has a Onan 4000 genny and we carry a Honda EU2000 as well. 200 watts of solar on the roof and two Trojan T105 deep cycle batteries.

Do your diligence on RV's. We have had one in our family for 30 plus years. We have had 2 brand new units, one a Class A motorhome, another used class A, two cabover campers, one new, and a couple of used travel trailers, then this brand new 2014 Eclipse.
They are not built like you'd think they should be unless you really step up. The manufacturers are not like auto manufacturers, and the dealer service depts. are not run like a car dealer.
The worst experience we have ever had with a manufacturer would be on this unit.
This 5er is a Eclipse Attitude 32AK.
I will never own another Eclipse product as long as I live. The coach is ok, but their quality control on the line is horrendous, and their customer service is a joke.
They expect you to bring the unit back to their plant in riverside, Ca. to have major manufacturer defects repaired, and will not warranty their work.
A 1500 mile trip for unwarranted repairs of a manufacturer failure is absurd.
I have the emails and pictures if you need more info.
We have plans similar to yours, but are taking vacations in the rig until the wife retires in a few years.
Here is a pic of the old truck with the new RV on it's maiden voyage.

 

[GAmes]

I thought Eclipse had gone out of business. We use to haul them, but not for several years now.

 

[GrantP]

toy haulers have the axles farther back, so make sure you have the biks as far back as you can get them, then make use of a local CAT scales after it's loaded to see if you need to move the load around.
i got a awesome deal on a used 5er, it looks longer than it really is. 33' and rides like crap till it has our toys in the back.
our generator is very quiet, it's onan something or other,
as for pin weight, i think the rule is 15-20%.
living in the west, we boon dock, i've never camped in a camground. ever.
don't be scared to look for a used one.



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Just going to take a guess...Little America parking lot?

 

[Killgore]

I still have my Class A's but don't expect to ever be asked for it because I wouldn't consider pulling to Cali. When pulling I watch my distances closely even though I have a rugged suspension and disc brakes. My tires are H rated but I still respect their limitations. My weight transfer from the camper is 24% and I'm heavy at 26,240 lbs. CVW. Yes, I carry a Chinese genset in the bed of my truck that only throws about 30A, but is sufficient for running most of my essentials. Here in the Southeast, the opportunity to boondock is limited because of the absence of public lands, and all the electrical gizmo options go largely unused, at least around here.

Before you go looking, do your homework. Check out the owner forums and see what's bugging folks. Approach anything made by subsidiaries of Thor Industries with extreme caution. (That might make somebody mad since they manufacture over 90% of the campers now available.) Do your looking at Camping World but your purchasing online. (Sorry Marcus Lemonis.) Buyer beware!

- Ed

 

[Killgore]

Don't get the wrong impression, it wasn't always a bed of roses.

 

[GAmes]

CA has an entirely different requirement for class A licences than the rest of the US. (go figure:-laf) Their residents with TTs over 10,000 GVWR and 5ers over 15,000 GVWR, are required to have a class A license, doesn't matter what the GCWR is. So it really doesn't matter if you plan to go there, your state's requirements trump their resident's requirements. Many states exempt RVs from class A requirements, so perhaps you are safe in AL. If your DL is from TX a class A would be required. Same with PA and many other states.

 

[Killgore]

No requirement in Alabama or other Deep South states.

 

[GAmes]

No requirement in Alabama or other Deep South states.

Are you sure? Nowhere on the AL DMV site does it say RVs over 26,000 GCWR are exempt from requiring a class A DL. Other states specify exemptions, so I'm wondering where you got your information. All deep south states? Really?

Classes:

Class A —Any combination of vehicles with a gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more) provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds).

http://dps.alabama.gov/Home/wfConte...DriverLicense-ClassesEndorsementsRestrictions

 

[Killer223]

sams club. i live in Flag.

 

[Killgore]

Confusing? Yes, but I think the defining loophole is whether or not it is recreational/commercial. I have kept my CDL current for just this reason.

Check out - changingears.com/rv-sec-state-rv-license.shtml.

- Ed

 

[GAmes]

That is an interesting website, but they got it wrong for OR and likely other states as well. It's too bad the states do not have a standard requirement for non-commercial DLs as CDLs do. It would decrease the confusion, but as you know, even CDL requirements are often misunderstood.

 

[Killgore]

True! The prevailing differences sure make it confusing, (THESE United States verses THE United States). With 430,000+ new campers sold last year and no telling how many this year, it could become more of an issue in the future as more folks enter the highway system. Thankfully, most are responsible drivers and after a few miles behind the wheel settle down to being decent drivers. Those that aren't, well they discover real quick that they can be expensive to fix.

 

[Killgore]

Forgive me for being negative but it may help the OP and his original questions. First, the RVIA provides no over-site, no meaningful regulations, and there are no industry regulations or lemon laws mandated by the Feds. Consequently, many manufacturers produce "junk" that they refuse to properly warrantee. What? Check out the average camper: drum brakes and suspensions that are clearly insufficient; axles that are under-rated for the weight of the camper (I owned a camper that grossed over 10,500 lbs. with 4,400 lb. axles; sure the hitch-pin weight almost compensated for the lack of axle capacity); and standard rubber included China "bombs", the infamous ST tires that might get you around the block.

Satisfaction after the sale: P****d Consumer lists 1545 complaints with only 7 issues resolved for Camping World, by and large the biggest RV dealer with well over 120 locations.

There are some good manufacturers out there, but you've got to do your research and not be fooled by the glitz and eye-candy. Again, I apologize for being negative but I've been playing this game for fifteen years and I personally know too many people who have been raped.

 

[Tuesdak]

Killgore is an optimist. After seeing the dealer use our new *sold* truck camper for spare parts before we could pick it up we went used. My truck wouldn't carry the weight of a camper with SRW anyway.

Another thing with RV's that's isn't common knowledge is keeping the RV fridge level. Apparently when it goes off level like climbing or going down a steep grade the boiler overheats and ruins the anti corrosion agent. After awhile the welds corrode internally and the cooling unit leaks. This can result in fire or explosion and two class action lawsuits have resulted with Norcold and Dometic. Bottom line is to order a ARP boiler temp limit device. https://www.arprv.com/ The good news is some Norcold fridges now have a 3 year warranty as a result of the lawsuit. https://www.norcoldclassaction.com/faqs.aspx

 

[GAmes]

Going up and down the steep hills of BC while on the way to and from AK (not to mention thousands of miles of US roads), with two different RVs, we have never experienced a frig problem. Leaving it parked on a steep grade can cause a problem, but the motion while traveling keeps all the chemicals moving just fine.

 

[WalterJ]

Tongue wgt query: I see where the RV manuf. really cut their engineering calc's close, e.g. tire, wheel axle ratings are = RV + 1000# INCLUDING 2000# in your truck bed! No wonder I had 5 bad tire issues in 4 years. No competent service factors, 'cause they just gotta keep that price point way down to sell.

Do your own tally of weights & measures to prevent bad surprises. Good luck traveler.