6BTA/545 swap - Which to use!??!

[DoubleWhoosh]

Just a few questions if anyone can answer them regarding the best choice for a motor for a 6BTA/Allison 545 swap into an 85 Full Size Chevy...



As far as upgrades after the changeover, are the pre 94 or the 94-98 going to be the best for making power for towing.



Is there a certain power ceiling or limiting factor without additional major work on the early vs. late motors.



What is the cost for upgrades for these early vs late motors.



Is a 6BTA simply an intercooled version of a 6BT or are there other differences, as I was planning on a custom intercooler and piping anyways.



On a 545 trans are there different calibrations if it was on a different motor? Or can I just use the proper converter and be ok.



Thanks in advance for any help!!

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

From my fuel article in the recent TDR issue, you can see that the P7100 equiped engines have more potential than the older VE pump engines. When they went to intercooling they made other changes too. Best Dodge/Cummins engine for power potential is 12 valve, 215 hp (5 speed truck, federal non-egr engine). Sure, I'm biased, my 215 makes 600

AFter that, the 175 hp (94-5 5 speed) or 180 (96-8 auto); least is the 160 hp (94-5 auto). The 24 valves aren't so good for conversions because of all the electronics--cabling and computers.

 

[w-cummins]

Well you need to do some more work to install this conversion



If you put this into a HD chevy with 4:11 rear, you will have a top speed of 60Mph @ WOT. You will need to find at least a rear with 3:34 or change to a Dana 70 like the first Dodge non OD trucks used with a 3:08. You could of course add an external OD unit off the back of a short prop shaft. Also I don't "Think" that most Alison 545's have a parking brake paw so make sure that your e brake works well!



William... .

 

[w-cummins]

Originally posted by Joseph Donnelly

The 24 valves aren't so good for conversions because of all the electronics--cabling and computers.

Dam I wish some one would have told me that before I started mine



William... .

 

[Marco]

The 24 Valve Engine comes from Cummins as a stand alone engine. It's rather simple to make the engine run with only it's ECM. You need only 2X12 Volt a ground and the will to make that thing run. Been there done that... Rather simple. The ECM also provides a signal for a tach... .



Another thing is to get a DC AT to work. To do that, you'd need the PCM also, but that thing is rather hard to get to work without all the other modules on the CAN bus.



Anyway, who wants that transmission for a swap?



So William don't worry the engine WILL run and will run GREAT!



Hey, Dr, Donnelly the 12V thing is past, 24 V rules!Oo. Oo. Oo.



Marco

 

[Speedo]

6BTA/AT545

The transmission is a 4 speed auto with a first gear ratio of

3. 45 to 1 and 4th is 1 to 1. It has no provision for a park pawl

but a park brake can be mounted to the tailshaft housing. It

doesn't have lock up either. As for the engine, is the 6BTA an

after cooled rather than intercooled engine?

 

[Speedo]

The calibrations for the valve body can be found if you have the

A/N number off of the tag on the side of the transmission. The

valve body can be changed along with the proper governor to

match your engine.

 

[w-cummins]

Originally posted by Marco

The 24 Valve Engine comes from Cummins as a stand alone engine. It's rather simple to make the engine run with only it's ECM. You need only 2X12 Volt a ground and the will to make that thing run. Been there done that... Rather simple. The ECM also provides a signal for a tach... .



Another thing is to get a DC AT to work. To do that, you'd need the PCM also, but that thing is rather hard to get to work without all the other modules on the CAN bus.



Anyway, who wants that transmission for a swap?



So William don't worry the engine WILL run and will run GREAT!



Hey, Dr, Donnelly the 12V thing is past, 24 V rules!Oo. Oo. Oo.



Marco

Ahh just the Man I want to ask a few questions!!!



Yep I know it will work I too was having some fun



I'm going to use the worst part of the Dodge truck for the conversion though, the Dodge ECM and PCM ( I got the whole wiring harness and ecm/pcm with the motor. What I didn't get was the ABS, CTS, gauge cluster, and ABM moduals. I have picked up a Cluster, and I don't think I need the CTS as far as I can see. But the PCM is going to freak out when it can't poll the ABM and ABS units!

What I want to do is make a fake node to sit on the CCD bus and respond to the requests from the PCM to them with the all/ok reply. Do you have any ideas where to start ( the addresses of the ABS and the ABM would be GREAT! also the reply messages that they return would be cool I assume that this information is not listed any place ( at least no place I have seen:-(



Thanks

William

 

[Marco]

Listen William!



Don't ***** with the PCM! Use the engine as it is with it's ECM, if you want to, use the ECM signal for the tach, but that's all you can do.



It's hard and very time consuming to get the PCM to work. You say you've picked up a dash. Is that the right dash for THAT PCM?? The dash has changed over the years... .

How can you get the speedo to work without the ABS module?



Believe me, been there done that... .



It's much cheaper if you use aftermarket gauges for the oil pressure and coolant temps. Use also an mecchanical speedo and you're done...



WHY do you want all the hassle with the PCM??? You don't need it to get the engine running... .



Marco

 

[DoubleWhoosh]

Rear end gears I'm going to change, so no problem there...



Electronics transplanting no problem, we do race car engine management systems and different manufacturer/enging swaps all the time. Plus some automotive OE electronic engineering experience, well that's a plus too



This no park setting on the 545 is something that I wasn't aware of, I need a reliable transmission to pull 20-25000 GVW. What other options are there?



So I guess the 94-95 are the best motors for upgrading then? I'm trying to get this thing certified out here in CA as a diesel, so it will have to come from a 2500 passenger truck.

 

[w-cummins]

Originally posted by Marco

Listen William!



Don't ***** with the PCM! Use the engine as it is with it's ECM, if you want to, use the ECM signal for the tach, but that's all you can do.

Well I didn't want to ***** with the PCM but I was not aware that I could run with out it. I assume that your suggesting hooking up a tach to the crankshaft sensor output? What tach is compatible with that output and has the correct (say 4. 5k rpm max) face plate?

It's hard and very time consuming to get the PCM to work. You say you've picked up a dash. Is that the right dash for THAT PCM?? The dash has changed over the years... .

How can you get the speedo to work without the ABS module?

Yes I have already spent lots of time and $$ on it!!

I think the Cluster is out of the correct truck for the PCM it's the correct year, the only diff I can see is that the cluster came out of a automatic truck and I'm running a manual. I have an Auotometer mechanical to electronic speedo converter (16 pulse per rev) and I planed on inputting it to the VCC pin after adjusting it to provide the correct 8k pulses per mile, with an electronic speedo ratio converter.

Believe me, been there done that... .



It's much cheaper if you use aftermarket gauges for the oil pressure and coolant temps. Use also an mecchanical speedo and you're done...

Oh I already do believe you! I already have a full set of Mechanical Autometer 2 5/8" procomp gauges ready to go in the truck, and I could use the stock Chevy speedo too if need be.

WHY do you want all the hassle with the PCM??? You don't need it to get the engine running... .

Well, like I said I didn't know I did not have to run it... I thought that the CCD bus needed to be terminated, and the gauge cluster and PCM were needed for that. Also if I don't run it I will not have the Charging system controls, the AC compressor control, or the cruse control systems. Additionally if I wanted Dodge to re-flash my ECM for any reason having the system in place would allow that too... ( not that I'm sure I would want them to do that:-( I suppose I could go to some manual Alternator control system ( or replace it with an internally regulated model $$$) and I could run the cruse control from the truck and hack it to the motor.....





William Cummins... ...

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

w-cummins,

Any auto parts store has GM single wire alternators for $50-60. Mounting it is easy if you can swap an engine.



Marco,

how do we hook up the 12v and ground connectios you speak of?



Which wire is the tach output and is it 1 pulse=2rpm like a gasser? how is that tapped?



Thanks,

Mark

 

[w-cummins]

Originally posted by Mark_Kendrick

w-cummins,

Any auto parts store has GM single wire alternators for $50-60. Mounting it is easy if you can swap an engine.



Marco,

how do we hook up the 12v and ground connectios you speak of?



Which wire is the tach output and is it 1 pulse=2rpm like a gasser? how is that tapped?



Thanks,

Mark

Well please tell me more about this cheep GM alternator that has the required 130+ amp out put like the one it would be replacing... The computer control charging rates and battery temp compensation would be nice too... .





The pinout for the ECM is for the power connectors is



#5 fused Ignition

#30 Ground

#48 Fused B+

#49 Ground

#50 Fused B+



Looks like some thing like 32 pulse per 1 RPM output ( I have not counted the slots on the gear). Also you may have to deal with TDC slot too, Although the tach most likely wouldn't be able to tell the difference in the width of that pulse.



Later

William... .

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

I forgot about the 130 amp part. . A decent alternator shop can build one for under $150. But why would you want a computer controlled alternator if you could do without it??



100 or 120 amp are the biggest i've seen stock... Ford alternators make that amperage (130+) and have an external regulator that can be bolted to the case. They are fairly inexpensive <<150.

 

[DoubleWhoosh]

Wow you guys are so much help

 

[Marco]

In simple words..

Let's resume.

The only things the engine, or better the ECM, needs to run is:

a constant 12 supply( fused 20A) to pin 48 and 50 on the ECM.

Ground to pin 30 and 49.

Ignition voltage to pin 5.

Voilà the engine will run...



To make the task simpler, use the 50 way connector that would be normally on the firewall to do all the connections. Yes that's the connector on the engine harness.



For the alternator. I've used an external controller for that purpose. Was about 15 bucks from a Perkins part store ( Tractors).



The E C M provides the output for the tach! No need to use the CPS to get a signal!!! A normal 6 Cyl engine tach has worked for me. The pin is 39??? can't remember don't have the book here handy.



The Cruise controll... Summit has or had a complete system for less than 100 bucks...



Sure enough you have then to provide juice to the VP, the fuel heather and the intake heather relays but that's also very simple...



Oh, yeah, you can also use a simple led for the wait to start engine light! Pin 39 of the ECM provides the ground for that light.



Helps?



Marco

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

way to go Marco

Thanks buddy... good @#$% manard!!!

 

[JLEONARD]

My Cummins 270 hp marine engine came with a Delco 21 SI alternator rated at 105 amps. It is a simple, alternator with a built in regulator.

Delco also makes a 130 amp version that will fit, but I don't know the model number.

The 21 SI has an R terminal to run a tach if you want to go that way.

Hope this helps.

Good luck. Can't wait to see the pics.

 

[w-cummins]

Re: In simple words..

Originally posted by Marco



To make the task simpler, use the 50 way connector that would be normally on the firewall to do all the connections. Yes that's the connector on the engine harness.

The connector that connects to the PDC on the inner fender well by the battery??

For the alternator. I've used an external controller for that purpose. Was about 15 bucks from a Perkins part store ( Tractors).

So is that a bosh part? part#?? please

The E C M provides the output for the tach! No need to use the CPS to get a signal!!! A normal 6 Cyl engine tach has worked for me. The pin is 39??? can't remember don't have the book here handy.

Well I was going to post the pinout but it seems that I can't attach it to the message :-(



anyway there is nothing listed as a tach output from the ECM the only thing that looks remotely like it is the CKP out to pcm pin#45 Maybe the ECM parses the output of the CKP into some more useable output that a tach or the PCM can use??

The Cruise controll... Summit has or had a complete system for less than 100 bucks...

Yeah and JC witneeeey has stuff like thouse too ( the chevy truck unit would be better but still a step down from the Dodge PCM unit)

Sure enough you have then to provide juice to the VP, the fuel heather and the intake heather relays but that's also very simple...

No problem there as I have all the wires from the Dodge harness and I'm going to use the PDC.

Oh, yeah, you can also use a simple led for the wait to start engine light! Pin 39 of the ECM provides the ground for that light.

Pin #39 is SCI receive Pin

Pin #37 is wait to start driver

Pin # 21 is Water in Fuel signal



I guess I could type all of them in but there are 50 of them and I have a nice Gif with the connectors and locations too

E-mail me if any one wants the gif and I will send it to them...

Helps?

You bet Thanks!! Yes it will help a bunch to get it started, and up and running! Of course I'm not going to give up on the PCM just yet though



BTW I guess I just assumed that your ISB was in a dodge truck. What did you do the conversion into with the ISB? What was the show stopper with you running the PCM it looks like the PCM for the Cummins is not using 1/6 it's capacity for this application. does it even have the MC68HC11D3 and MC68HC11K4 running in it? Seems like they are not even needed!



Thanks William.....

 

[Marco]

The connector I'm talking about is the one the "end" side of the engine harness. All the in/outputs to the ECM are in there.

Not the one on the PDC.



Also I wouldn't use the PDC, what for? Too much trouble! The PDC is for the whole truck, while you only need two relays. One for the VP, one for the fuel heather( Both have their output from the ECM you have only to provide 'em juice).

The air heather relays should be already connected to the engine harness, also there you need only to supply 12V.

Ok, keep in mind, I'm only talking about the engine and it's needs, dunno what you need for your aplication...



Another point that might be worth to mention ( maybe not the ECM switches on/off the NEGATIVE side of the circuits. That means (for example for the wait to start light) you have to wire the juice from the battery to the bulb or led and the NEGATIVE side to the ECM. The ECM closes then the circuit turning on/off the GROUND!!! Keep that in mind!



I don't have a part number for the external regulator, but it's such a simple thing that I don't think you need one. Older tractors ( engines) have all had external regulators... . spareparts are rather inexpensive.



I think you use the Dodge books for your wiring. The Cummins book for electronics troubleshooting of the ISB is much better for the engine wiring. It has a very comprehensive schematic. I'd get that book if I was to try a job like the one you're doing... .



Sorry, I've forgotten mine at the shop of a buddy in Swiss, I don't remember which pin provides the outbut for the tach, the Cummnis book lists it. What I can tell you for sure is that the tach isn't operated through the CAN bus. There is a wire that goes directly from the ECM to the dash/tach. It provides a standard signal to the tach... .



The engine I had worked on came out from a 2001. 5 ETH. I didn't converse it into anything. I used it on a engine dyno for emission testing. The Cummins wasn't EURO III compilant. That meant no more Cummins powered trucks in Europe.

Well, to make a long story short, I've tweaked the software in way to get the engine into EURO III emissions.....



Lookie here:

http://www.dodge-truck.ch/homepage.htm



Click on the "NEWS" on the left, then scroll down a little, you'll find a rather familiar engine... .



Marco