727 trans issue

[btoscano]

hey all,



Starting a few days ago I was getting this ticking noise sound like it was coming from the trans. Wierd I thought because what could tick? The ticking was noticable when it was hot outside at low speed. It would go away once it shifted into 2nd gear. Then it got a bit worse (and warmer) and it would do it at idle at a stop light. Shifting to Neutral and it'd go away. It would also make the noise when I was coming to a stop right before it rocks back to a dead stop. When I pulled the dipstick, it was orangy and looked like it had air in it, but did not smell burnt at all.



I last drained the pan in Jan. about put about 3-3/4 of Redline C+ ATF w/ a Mopar filter.



Today I dropped the pan. No burnt smell, but the filter had a 1" bulge around the edge where the filter had come out of the frame. The filter was also kinda dirty, but not black or anything. The pan had a small trail of shiny metal in it, but the magnet was very clean.



I plant to drive the truck for a few days and change the fluid and check the filter.



Anybody have anything similar to this before??



Regards,

Brian

'90 D250 727 auto, stock ~ 150Kmi

 

[boatpuller]

You might want to check your flexplate for cracks, pull the inspection cover on the bottom of the bellhousing and use a little mirror to look for cracks around the large holes in the flexplate and outward from the center hub.



My truck made small ticking noises before the large ticking noises before the grinding noises as the truck wouldn't move anymore with the inner and outer parts of the flexplate not attached to each other.



Good Luck,

Caleb

 

[BushWakr - RIP]

Hmmmmm... . now, what normally follow's a ticking noise... . :{



Seriously though... you should pull as much oil out of the trans/convertor as possible and, run some fresh stuff thru it.

You can do this by lossening the 10 or 12??) bolts that hold the valve body in place. You only need to loosen them about 3 turns... from there you'll get almost all the oil out of the system, including the TC. It just 'self-syphons" out.....



pb.

 

[btoscano]

Great,,, I had visions of the flex plate cracking because I've heard of that twice, but not on these trannys.



After I filled up the pan on my hilly driveway putting in as much as I took out, I drove to the nearest gas station with flat parking (7. 5 miles) and was shocked to see I was 2 quarts LOW on fluid... .



However, the air bubbles in the fluid are gone.



I drove the truck about 350 miles yesterday to get the fluid moving thru the system. I heard the ticking a little bit. It was better and quieter than the day before but I didn't drive it as far or do as much city driving.



It seems most prone to do it when its HOT (i. e. driven 160+ miles) and the more city driving the worse it gets. Yesterday in ATL I was taking it out of gear at stop lights to get it to shut up. Take it out of gear, put it back in gear and it would be quiet, but I was leaving it out of gear until the light turned just to be easier on it. Does it sound like the flex plate still??



I will change out the fluid a few more times from the pan. I'm tempted to get as much as possible out, but am balancing that against "shocking" the system with too much new transmission fluid all at once.



No towing or hauling has been involved.



Thanks,

 

[Philip]

I would still look at the flex plate. Look for shiney metalflakes in the bellhousing opening. The Dodge trucks below 94 have had problems with flex plates. In 94 they had a model change on them.



In auto's and gasser trucks I have replaced many flex plates.

 

[btoscano]

I cleaned off the cover plate form the small leak I have from the rear of the oil pan... I'll remove the inspection cover tomorrow afternoon before the bugs come out. Am all I'm looking for is shiny metal? Any other visual clues to spot using a drop light or flash light?



I'll pulled serveral MB transmission's off and see the flex plate (and the ring gear that attaches as a separate part). Is the Dodge setup similar?



How much do flex plates cost & will I have trouble sourcing one or are they specific to the TF 727 ?



If I do have to remove the trans, should I consider changing the torque converter or other transmission parts?



Thanks,

 

[Philip]

From other posts here the 94 model flex plates fit our turcks. I am not sure if there are aftermarket plates made for our trucks. Some one else will have to say on that.



Check for the flakes of metal in the bellhousing and look over what you can see of the flex plate for cracks. If you find metal. It is most likely cracking around the bolt holes where you can't see.



The Dodge setup is very close to the MB. From the dealer I think a flex plate is around $125. or so. Its been a while sence I have prised one.



Now you can cheat on the flex plate replacement. You do not need to drop the trans all the way to replace the flex plate. Unhook everything like you were going to drop the trans. But leave the cross member attached to the trans. Unbolt it from the frame. Get some long bolts or make some from round stock. Make them around 6" long and screw them into at least two bolt holes. Then slide the trans back on these bolts far enough to get a wrench onto the flex plate bolts. Block the engine and unscrew the bolts and drop the flex plate out. Reinstall the new one in reverse pattern. This is a common trick that a lot of commerical shops use on flex plates.



On a converter replacement. That is your call there. There are many different ones on the market. The stock ones are loose from the factory. If it was mine I would find a tighter aftermarket one. If you don't tow often or haul heavy or BOMB it. The stocker will do what ever you need to do.



Be warned if you replace the converter only. If you have trans problems later. You would need another new converter. Most shops will not reuse a old converter. If they would, you would not have a warrenty on the rebuild.

 

[btoscano]

Great information about the flex plate replacement. At this point its seems like I'd be happy if its the flex plate!! If its anything else, it sounds more expensive.



So it may be completey coincidential that the flex plate went & I noticed the orangy trans fluid.



I'll pull that inspection cover tomorrow and let ya'll know what I find.



Regards,

 

[btoscano]

I pulled the inspection cover and saw no metal. flakes or anything. Looked pretty clean to me.



I dropped the transmission pan again, 3rd time in 3 days. The fluid is looking better, filter looks ok, nothing sticking to the magnet.



However, there is a short trail of shiny brass colored metal in the pan in the same spot now for the 3rd time. I suspect the ticking may be producing this metal ? What might it be?



Thanks,

 

[Philip]

I pulled the inspection cover and saw no metal. flakes or anything.

I wish you had found a broken flex plate.



I have one last suggestion on the flex plate. The converter is held down with 4 bolts. Remove them and push the converter straight back. Then take a small inspection mirror and look around the bolt heads on the flex plate. Do not turn the converter. It is most likely keyed to bolt down in one place. (The gassers are).



I am hoping it is the flex plate. If the ticking is inside the trans it get expensive from here.

 

[btoscano]

Unbolting the TC will require some shop space that I don't have right now. Hopefully I'll get my '87 190D 2. 5 Turbo out of the garage this week and then get the truck in. Won't touch the TC bolts until then.



The only thing that confused me when looking at the cover is that the trans housing looks roughly cast around the inspection cover plate. As if it would ALMOST touch the ring gear... but clearly it doesn't because that side of the ring gear as teeth that are perfectly squared.



I looked at the valve body bolts at the suggestion that loosening them will create a suction effect and draw out 10+ quarts. However, the look to be about 22 of them! A combination of TORX and a few hex heads. At this point I'm most comfortable dropping the pan frequently.



Brian

 

[cerberusiam]

The hex heads hold the valve body to the case, the torx hold the valve body together (I think). You don't need to drop the VB to flush the rest of the fluid either. Pull the trans cooler return line from the case and push a rubber hose over the end and route it into a pan or bucket, start the truck and put it in neutral to start the fluid circulating and your catch pan should start filling. When you get what looks to be a gallon of fluid shut the truck down and refill the trans. Repeat until the fluid looks clean.



Brass colored metal in the pan is a bad thing, especially if it is recurring in short intervals. Silver colored pieces are not as serious unless they recur frequently. The brass generally comes from the thrust washers coming apart and can indicate a decveloping problem. Air in the fluid is not a good thing either. It sounds like something is starting to come apart and allowing the fluid to foam and trap air.



What you describe could be a flex plate or given the other symptoms an internal problem if you are sure the noise is coming from the trans. The injection pump will make a ticking noise also whne the return springs start to go and sometimes it is hard to track down the exact source.

 

[btoscano]

I was under the impression the air could have been caused by the hole on the edge of the filter which I replaced? Is there a WARRANTY on these filters? Should I get Chrysler involved or will they have me bend over?



Basically I bought the truck in 3/03. Fluid at that time was red and red again when I dropped the pan in 12/03 (about 250 hrs on the truck during that time). I refilled with Redline C+ ATF whatever came out of the pan, 4 quarts or so and put in a MOPAR filter and gasket. Engine and trans had been running great until a few days ago when I heard the ticking and found orangy fluid... a few days later when I pulled the pan I saw a hole in the filter.



What do you all think? Is it possible the filter blowing a hole contributed to all of this. I'm not real knowledgable about the innards of trans.



Thanks,

Brian

 

[btoscano]

Which is the return line and supply line for hte trans cooler lines on the trans ?? Can this be done with the truck running and the trans in PARK... or does it have to be neutral? I can't see why it'd matter but it does for fluid level checking.



Can anyone verify what bolts come out to lower the valve body??

 

[CDegner]

Originally posted by btoscano

Which is the return line and supply line for hte trans cooler lines on the trans ?? Can this be done with the truck running and the trans in PARK... or does it have to be neutral? I can't see why it'd matter but it does for fluid level checking.

The truck must be in neutral in order to pump fluid out. Our trannies do not pump fluid when in park.



Carl

 

[Greenleaf]

OK, here we go.....

Yes the filter will separate. Rupture one would say. I have it happen. I also change the fluid often and have seen no ill effects because of this. Never a ticking... . never orange fluid.



You will see the bolts to loosen. They are very obvious. I'll get back to you on the torque spec. I could say something like 12-18inch lbs but don't want to tell you wrong.



The fluid flow. If I remember right... ... ... ... .

The rear line is fluid in (from cooler)

The front line is out (to heat exchanger)



Scott

 

[btoscano]

Okay, so fluid out of the trans goes first to the heat exchanger on the passenger side, then the front aux cooler, back into the trans? I'll check the tubing and find out which is the return.



I'm wondering if the ticking noise is a failure mode of the IP and just coincided to what I'm seeing with the trans filter blowing a hole. May be the little trail of shiny metal is coming from some sealing of the 4-7 quarts of Redline C+ synthetic ATF I used.



I'll do some searching on the IP ticking failure but basically if I have metal when I pull the shutoff valve I've got the problem?



Thanks,

Brian

 

[1stgen4evr]

metal in the pan

If you are getting metal in the pan with just a day or two of use, you have something that is giving up. Every time I have changed the fluid in my automatics there is a minor amount of metal that I am told is ok. But I am talking about lots of miles between changes. While mine are OD trannys, the front section is (I think) the same as the 727.



Would the red to orange color change be moisture in the oil?



Since you have pretty much ruled out the flex plate, I expect you will fairly soon be into the transmission. Good luck anyway it goes. It isn't like you have to replace the truck. The 727 is a reliable unit and most any quality automatic shop can do you a good job. We are lucky here as there is a shop where they are familar with the Dodges and their needs. I seem to remember that you can do some up grades to the transmission.



I have an 89 with the 727. I am not satisfied with the ratio. I am building a 96 OD transmission to go in it. That might be more than you want to tackle but would be a complete upgrade.



1stgen4evr

James

 

[btoscano]

I asked one of the pro mech buddy's I have about this when I saw him yesterday and he said "water" when he heard about the orangy fluid. But I have no idea where the water would be coming from?? It seems to be getting more and more red as I keep changing 5 quarts... I would think either some vent has failed and its getting in when I drive in the rain or the heat exchanger is leaking... but I haven't seen any separation of fluid when I drain the pan, I would have thought water would sink to the bottom?



Brian

 

[CDegner]

If you are getting water in your transmission fluid, it sounds like your heat exchanger may have a leak. That is the only place on our trucks that the two fluids could possibly mix.



Of course, water in the transmission fluid is not a good thing. You might also check your water in the radiator for signs of fluid in it.



Carl