A new approach to the well known front end problem

[Charlie Lawhon]

This is how you tow with a "pickup". 35k combined, eye candy!

View attachment 118804

Hey you ARE looking sharp though.

 

[Charlie Lawhon]

I'm about to go to sleep. I like nights where no one is around to interrupt my work.

So I was given 2 trucks yesterday that are both 2G 2500. One was born with a 12v and the other a half ton short bed.

The child will be a 12v because its free.

WHICH ONE DO YOU WANT TO SEE MADE A MID ENGINE?

I'm going to cut one of their fire walls in the next few days for real because my buddy is on the fence on doing it to his race truck at the moment and I've done run my mouth on here....

The new child will possibly get a C notch in front AND behind the cab to be a straight axle 4x4 that's got a vertical center of gravity that I can tolerate to drive on pavement.

Will destroy a transfer case testing it. Derek is abusive and I'm a magnet for broken parts when I try not to break it. Either way we're about to collect some data .

 

[Ozymandias]

Hi
Don't waste your time with the Gen2 Transfercase (NV242HD), it is way smaller and weaker then the Gen3 to Present unit.

And you talk about Racer or pulling a Trailer- both will use that unit.
Torsen has won the most world rally championships. But also it is a great help pulling a trailer on wet roads or any other surface. Just mesh into traffic from a dead stop is a pain with the now RWD, I often spin the wheels by accident doin so.

I think for the Torsen Unit itself you should work with the company, yourself fabricate everything around that unit. Contact them.

I'm sure you could sell thousands of that TC cases once on the market, there are millions of that trucks out there.

And if you want do a add on, then make a super low gearing like the Atlas 4 unit for the rock crawling crowd!
The HD Trucks are used for everything, from Baja Racing to rock crawling to workhorse to grocery getter and everything in between.

If you do that project it will be the FIRST ever built AWD HD Truck ever.

Let's talk about torque, engine wise.
1000ft from the engine, multiply by 6 for the transmission, you want 6000ft/lbs Input to the Transfercase plus a safety margin. Output will be close to 20000ft/lbs in Low Gear.

*I'm probably off the grid the next days, so no further answers from me for a couple days.

 

[Charlie Lawhon]

And yeah man..... I'm not kidding 100% for real we're doing it. We may cut both cab's and both frames. We really don't care.

I'm losing my mind wanting to see what changing the balance does when you shove all the drive train back a couple feet so you can chop the sifter off and have it stationed coming straight up out of the transmission located where it should have been at birth.

 

[Charlie Lawhon]

Hi
Don't waste your time with the Gen2 Transfercase (NV242HD), it is way smaller and weaker then the Gen3 to Present unit.

And you talk about Racer or pulling a Trailer- both will use that unit.
Torsen has won the most world rally championships. But also it is a great help pulling a trailer on wet roads or any other surface. Just mesh into traffic from a dead stop is a pain with the now RWD, I often spin the wheels by accident doin so.

I think for the Torsen Unit itself you should work with the company, yourself fabricate everything around that unit. Contact them.

I'm sure you could sell thousands of that TC cases once on the market, there are millions of that trucks out there.

And if you want do a add on, then make a super low gearing like the Atlas 4 unit for the rock crawling crowd!
The HD Trucks are used for everything, from Baja Racing to rock crawling to workhorse to grocery getter and everything in between.

If you do that project it will be the FIRST ever built AWD HD Truck ever.

Let's talk about torque, engine wise.
1000ft from the engine, multiply by 6 for the transmission, you want 6000ft/lbs Input to the Transfercase plus a safety margin. Output will be close to 20000ft/lbs in Low Gear.

*I'm probably off the grid the next days, so no further answers from me for a couple days.

Well when you get back.... first of all thanks! Secondly I am familiar with the atlas 4(eye candy bad ass)

Who has the torsion? I'm familiar with elastomers in a mass of application but never imagined it would live in an application we're discussing.

As far as torque capability, not a problem. One of my main entermeshed companies deals with radial piston hydraulic motors that go over 2 million ft/lbs direct drive.

In these pics is the main drive from my grinder. I did all the design work on this myself. It was originally a wheel motor of 5000 ft/lbs. I kept only the cam ring and up which isn't much of the original then I designed the new nose and output to be a 5 port swivel with each port delivering 40 gal/min @ 4000psi working pressure and transfer the torque through the swivel. In the process we couldn't attach the motor or its output to anything because its inside a slewing bearing that would destroy the motor and swivel if it was more than 0.002" out of center.

The solution was to float the motor torque mounts and the output so it depends solely on its own weight to stay engaged and drive the entire 5000lb rotating group.

This assembly alone is just over $40k my cost to produce.

You can believe me when I say we can build a transfer case to suit the request and have safety margin.

 

[Charlie Lawhon]

I can't sleep. I'm too excited about this mid engine thing. So here are the vehicles. Which ever one ends up being the one will end up with zero interior and 2 race seats so never mind the interior current condition. We have ample body parts on hand so never mind lacking pieces. It WILL end up a short bed and reversed frame rails in the rear for at least 18 inches of rubber inside a single wheel bed body line.

It will end up lowered to the point 30 inch tall tires are as close as we can get it to rubbing the body at full compression of the suspension and still turn the steering wheel lock to lock....I can't stand rubbing tires that require attention to driving just to avoid contact.

This one will get a solid front axle. If C notching the front is what it takes that's what it gets. We have learned how to do the rear frame flip to drop the frame from the cab forward using almost all factory hardware.

It will be a 12v p7100. This one will probably make about the normal, (and don't get mad) 175ish horsepower on the ground that those made factory. I don't need 500+horsepower to do base line weight and balance handling performance testing. That will happen soon enough.

???????????YOUR THOUGHTS?????????

No beauty queens but damn fine test beds.

Damn I just realized they were both born automatics. I'll find an NV4500 with transfer just to get started with. Derek has a weird thing about wide open throttle standing still and side stepping the clutch. He donated both trucks to stop me from chopping his race toy so I guess I owe him at least a drive line explosion once in the process before it starts getting expensive.

 

[Tractorat]

Does this apply to 2nd gen trucks ? It seems like everyone who is commenting has 3rd or newer.

 

[Charlie Lawhon]

Does this apply to 2nd gen trucks ? It seems like everyone who is commenting has 3rd or newer.

Yes this was intended to be a 2G specific thread originally.

 

[BigPapa]

Might I suggest starting a new thread for the build?

 

[Charlie Lawhon]

Might I suggest starting a new thread for the build?

You're probably right. Thanks

 

[Bill Lins]

Hey- don't give up on the 2nd Gen 2wd steering problem! Mine has sucked since the day I bought it brand new.

 

[Charlie Lawhon]

Hey- don't give up on the 2nd Gen 2wd steering problem! Mine has sucked since the day I bought it brand new.

They all sucked from day 1 and they all suck with brand new ball joints, tie rod ends, Pittman, idler, springs, shocks and even new gear box all at 1 time. Saying they weren't born with a poor front end (2 wheel drive specific) is denial. They just feel wore out all the time. I've had several that had 180 degrees of free steering wheel travel.

I'm not giving up on it by any means. We actually just changed the springs again in the test truck to some quite a bit lighter than half ton springs. The half ton spring swap was still too much spring for my taste. With the way we dampen it you just barely need enough spring to hold it at ride height.

We are needing to go to a 4 way damper at this point to dial the low speed in to a passenger friendly tone because it's a bit bumpy rolling in a parking lot but gives feedback of having more control at road speed rather than feeling like a sponge that has you guessing which way you are going to chase the truck with the steering wheel at the next wave or bump in the road.

We always discuss how you'll be going down the highway and the truck is veering to the right and your turning to the left gradually knowing it is going to start turning left at some point but you don't know for sure how much more you have to turn left before it responds. At the same time you're getting ready to yank it back to the right because now you've turned left so far you know when it does finally catch you better be ready to keep it from actually turning left. Or vise versa.

Have you seen the thread about moving the engine back? That frame was a 2 wheel drive half ton. I cut the entire front suspension and cross member clean off the frame to bare rails and starting completely from scratch on that one. I realize that's out of the question for most people but something you might want to follow.

 

[Bill Lins]

Have you seen the thread about moving the engine back? I realize that's out of the question for most people but something you might want to follow.

I've been following it but it doesn't really apply to my situation nor is it feasible for me. I've done all the things you mentioned except for replacing the steering shaft & box with no improvement.

 

[Charlie Lawhon]

I've been following it but it doesn't really apply to my situation nor is it feasible for me. I've done all the things you mentioned except for replacing the steering shaft & box with no improvement.

The biggest thing as far as driveability is dropping the gear box and doing the rack and pinion conversion. You won't be disappointed! It's almost a direct fit using the 3rd gen rack. There's a lot of info on it. Took me 1 day to complete in a shop we just moved into and very unorganized at the time.

As far as the ball joints I'm working on that. The other mods I may hand out because there's not enough interest to warrant a patent.