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2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission Air conditioning pressures

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My 2001 Ram 2500 lost its A/C from the passage of time and normal leakage. It worked great up until a year ago without ever having been charged. Then in a year it went way down.

A friend had gauges, vacuum pump, and so on, so tonight we put three, 12 ounce cans in it after evacuating it. It now cools roughly 25 degrees below ambient and works very well.

The manual says that for the temperature today the low side should have been 50-60 and the high side should have been 215-270.

The pressures we got were 42 for the low side and 310 for the high side. What do the experienced A/C folks here think about that? Do I have a problem?

Thank you.
 
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Connect a tachometer and a manifold gauge set.

Set the a/c heater mode control switch knob to the recirculation mode (Max-A/C) position, the temperature control knob to the full cool position, and the blower motor switch to the highest speed position.

Start the engine and hold the idle speed at 1,000 rpm with the compressor clutch engaged. If the compressor clutch does not engage, (Refer to 24 - HEATING & AIR CONDITIONING/CONTROLS/A/C COMPRESSOR CLUTCH COIL - DIAGNOSIS AND TESTING).

The engine should be at operating temperature. The doors and windows must be closed and the hood must be mostly closed.

Insert a thermometer in the driver side center A/C (panel) outlet. Operate the engine for five minutes.

The compressor clutch may cycle, depending upon the ambient temperature and humidity. If the clutch cycles, unplug the a/c low pressure switch wire harness connector from the switch located on the accumulator (A/C LOW PRESSURE SWITCH). Place a jumper wire between the two cavities of the a/c low pressure switch wire harness connector.

With the compressor clutch engaged, record the panel outlet discharge air temperature, the discharge pressure (high side), and the suction pressure (low side).

Compare the panel outlet discharge air temperature reading to the Performance Temperature and Pressure chart. If the temperature reading is high, clamp off both heater hoses (inlet and outlet), wait five minutes and record the temperature again. Compare the second reading to the Performance Temperature and Pressure chart. If the temperature reading is now OK, see Temperature Control Cable in the Removal and Installation section and in the Adjustments section of this group. If the temperature reading is still too high, (Refer to 24 - HEATING & AIR CONDITIONING/PLUMBING - DIAGNOSIS AND TESTING), and (Refer to 24 - HEATING & AIR CONDITIONING/PLUMBING - STANDARD PROCEDURE) in this group. Performance Temperature and Pressure

Ambient Temperature 21° C(70° F) 27° C(80° F) 32° C(90° F) 38° C(100° F) 43° C(110° F) 49° C(120° F)

Center Panel OutletDischarge Air Temperature 5 to 7° C(40 to 45° F) 13 to 16° C(55 to 60° F) 16 to 21° C(60 to 70° F) 21 to 24° C(70 to 75° F) 27 to 29° C(80 to 85° F) 29 to 32° C(85 to 90° F)

*Suction Pressure (Low Side) 241 to 276 kPa(35 to 40 psi) 276 to 345 kPa(40 to 50 psi) 345 to 414 kPa(50 to 60 psi) 414 to 483 kPa(60 to 70 psi) 483 to 552 kPa(70 to 80 psi) 552 to 586 kPa(85 to 90 psi)

*Discharge Pressure (High Side) 931 to 1000 kPa(135 to 145 psi) 1207 to 1482 kPa(175 to 215 psi) 1482 to 1862 kPa(215 to 270 psi) 1862 to 2275 kPa(270 to 330 psi) 2344 to 2551 kPa(340 to 370 psi) 2758 to 2965 kPa(400 to 430 psi)

*Note: If pressures are lower than shown, but center panel outlet discharge air temperatures are OK, then the A/C system is OK.





Compare the discharge (high side) and suction (low side) pressure readings to the Performance Temperature and Pressure chart. If the pressures are abnormal, see the A/C Diagnosis chart. A/C Diagnosis

Condition Possible Causes Correction

RAPID COMPRESSOR CLUTCH CYCLING (TEN OR MORE CYCLES PER MINUTE). 1. Low refrigerant system charge. 1. (Refer to Plumbing/Diagnosis and Testing - Refrigerant System Leaks) in this group. Test the refrigerant system for leaks. Repair, evacuate and charge the refrigerant system, if required.

2. Faulty a/c low pressure switch. 2. (Refer to Controls/A/C Low Pressure Switch/Diagnosis and Testing) in this group. Test the a/c low pressure switch and replace, if required.

3. Faulty Powertrain Control Module (PCM). 3. (Refer to Appropriate Diagnostic Information) for testing the PCM. Test the PCM and replace, if required.

EQUAL PRESSURES, BUT THE COMPRESSOR CLUTCH DOES NOT ENGAGE. 1. No refrigerant in the refrigerant system. 1. (Refer to Plumbing/Diagnosis and Testing - Refrigerant System Leaks) in this group. Test the refrigerant system for leaks. Repair, evacuate and charge the refrigerant system, if required.

2. Faulty fuse. 2. Check the fuses in the Power Distribution Center and the junction block. Repair the shorted circuit or component and replace the fuses, if required.

3. Faulty a/c compressor clutch coil. 3. (Refer to Controls/A/C Compressor Clutch Coil/Diagnosis and Testing) in this group. Test the compressor clutch coil and replace, if required.

4. Faulty a/c compressor clutch relay. 4. (Refer to Controls/A/C Compressor Clutch Relay/Diagnosis and Testing) in this group. Test the compressor clutch relay and relay circuits. Repair the circuits or replace the relay, if required.

5. Improperly installed or faulty a/c low pressure switch. 5. (Refer to Controls/A/C Low Pressure Switch/Diagnosis and Testing) in this group. Test the a/c low pressure switch and tighten or replace, if required.

6. Faulty a/c high pressure switch. 6. (Refer to Controls/A/C High Pressure Switch/Diagnosis and Testing) in this group. Test the a/c high pressure switch and replace, if required.

7. Faulty Powertrain Control Module (PCM). 7. (Refer to Appropriate Diagnostic Information) for testing the PCM. Test the PCM and replace, if required.

8. Faulty a/c heater control. 8. (Refer to Controls/A/C Heater Control/Diagnosis and Testing) in this group. Test the a/c heater control and replace, if required.

NORMAL PRESSURES, BUT A/C PERFORMANCE TEST AIR TEMPERATURES AT CENTER PANEL OUTLET ARE TOO HIGH. 1. Excessive refrigerant oil in system. 1. (Refer to Plumbing/Refrigerant Oil/Standard Procedure - Refrigerant Oil Level) in this group. Recover the refrigerant from the refrigerant system and inspect the refrigerant oil content. Restore the refrigerant oil to the proper level, if required.

2. Blend door actuator inoperative or faulty. 2. Check the Blend Door Actuator operation. Replace as required.

3. Blend door inoperative, obstructed or sealing improperly. 3. (Refer to Distribution/Blend Door/Removal/Installation) in this group. Inspect the blend door for proper operation and sealing and correct, if required.

LOW SIDE PRESSURE IS NORMAL OR SLIGHTLY LOW, AND HIGH SIDE PRESSURE IS TOO LOW. 1. Low refrigerant system charge. 1. (Refer to Plumbing/Diagnosis and Testing - Refrigerant System Leaks) in this group. Test the refrigerant system for leaks. Repair, evacuate and charge the refrigerant system, if required.

2. Refrigerant flow through the accumulator is restricted. 2. (Refer to Plumbing/Accumulator/ Removal/Installation) in this group. Replace the restricted accumulator, if required.

3. Refrigerant flow through the a/c evaporator is restricted. 3. (Refer to Plumbing/A/C Evaporator/ Removal/Installation) in this group. Replace the restricted evaporator, if required.

4. Faulty compressor. 4. (Refer to Plumbing/A/C Compressor/ Removal/Installation) in this group. Replace the compressor, if required.

LOW SIDE PRESSURE IS NORMAL OR SLIGHTLY HIGH, AND HIGH SIDE PRESSURE IS TOO HIGH. 1. Condenser air flow restricted. 1. Check the condenser for damaged fins, foreign objects obstructing air flow through the condenser fins, and missing or improperly installed air seals. Refer to Cooling for more information on air seals. Clean, repair, or replace components as required.

2. Inoperative cooling fan. 2. Refer to Cooling for more information. Test the cooling fan and replace, if required.

3. Refrigerant system overcharged. 3. (Refer to Plumbing/Standard Procedure - Refrigerant System Charge) in this group. Recover the refrigerant from the refrigerant system. Charge the refrigerant system to the proper level, if required.

4. Air in the refrigerant system. 4. (Refer to Plumbing/Diagnosis and Testing - Refrigerant System Leaks) in this group. Test the refrigerant system for leaks. Repair, evacuate and charge the refrigerant system, if required.

5. Engine overheating. 5. Refer to Cooling for more information. Test the cooling system and repair, if required.

LOW SIDE PRESSURE IS TOO HIGH, AND HIGH SIDE PRESSURE IS TOO LOW. 1. Accessory drive belt slipping. 1. Refer to Cooling for more information. Inspect the accessory drive belt condition and tension. Tighten or replace the accessory drive belt, if required.

2. A/C orifice tube not installed. 2. (Refer to Plumbing/A/C Orifice Tube/Diagnosis and Testing) in this group. Replace the liquid line, if required.

3. Faulty a/c compressor. 3. (Refer to Plumbing/A/C Compressor/ Removal/Installation) in this group. Replace the compressor, if required.

LOW SIDE PRESSURE IS TOO LOW, AND HIGH SIDE PRESSURE IS TOO HIGH. 1. Restricted refrigerant flow through the refrigerant lines. 1. (Refer to Plumbing/Caution - Refrigerant Hoses/Lines/Tubes Precautions) in this group. Inspect the refrigerant lines for kinks, tight bends or improper routing. Correct the routing or replace the refrigerant line, if required.

2. Restricted refrigerant flow through the a/c orifice tube. 2. (Refer to Plumbing/A/C Orifice Tube/Diagnosis and Testing) in this group. Replace the liquid line, if required.

3. Restricted refrigerant flow through the a/c condenser. 3. (Refer to Plumbing/A/C Condenser/ Removal/Installation) in this group. Replace the restricted a/c condenser, if required.
 
REFRIGERANT

The R-134a refrigerant system charge capacity for this vehicle is: 0. 907 kilograms (32 ounces).
 
My rough calculation; three 12 ounce cans, given the amount left in the bottom of the can, it must be close to 32.

The ambient temperature was 88 to 90 degrees F, and the A/C outlet temperature was 58 degrees F.

The system cools really well. I am just curious if those pressures are out of line.

The post above included this:

LOW SIDE PRESSURE IS TOO LOW, AND HIGH SIDE PRESSURE IS TOO HIGH. 1. Restricted refrigerant flow through the refrigerant lines. 1. (Refer to Plumbing/Caution - Refrigerant Hoses/Lines/Tubes Precautions) in this group. Inspect the refrigerant lines for kinks, tight bends or improper routing. Correct the routing or replace the refrigerant line, if required.

2. Restricted refrigerant flow through the a/c orifice tube. 2. (Refer to Plumbing/A/C Orifice Tube/Diagnosis and Testing) in this group. Replace the liquid line, if required.

3. Restricted refrigerant flow through the a/c condenser. 3. (Refer to Plumbing/A/C Condenser/ Removal/Installation) in this group. Replace the restricted a/c condenser, if required.


Given that it works well — cools well, I am not sure I want to disassemble the system to replace hoses or flush components. I am also not sure my pressures, shown in post 1, even qualify me to choose this symptom/causes list.
 
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When the compressor is running, the low pressure should gradually be sucked down to about 23 PSI. At about this pressure, the low pressure switch disengages the clutch. The low pressure then gradually climbs back up to about 45 PSI and the low pressure switch then enables the clutch.
 
Sounds like you put to much R134a. Your system should cycle exactly like fest3er said above, about 5-8 times a minute. If it doesn't, you have to much pressure and high pressure will damage the compressor. Just let off some pressure at the low side till it cycles properly. You should still have cold air and that is the best your system can do.
 
I try to keep mine at 34-36 on the low side, with temps about 80-90 with low humidity. It's easy to overcharge one when the temps are low. My old ramcharger let loose with the pressure relief valve the other day and I try not to overcharge it at all. No idea why it cut loose, but I guess I overcharged it.

An a/c tech told me that the lower the pressure on the low side, the better they cool, as long as you are above the low side cutout pressure at the lowest temp you will operate at. Maybe he was full of it, but mine cools pretty good with a minimum charge.
 
... An a/c tech told me that the lower the pressure on the low side, the better they cool, as long as you are above the low side cutout pressure at the lowest temp you will operate at. Maybe he was full of it, but mine cools pretty good with a minimum charge.



When the compressor runs, it pulls gas (R134) from the low side, liquifies it, then pushed it through the condensor where heat of compression is removed. If you can get your system to reduce low-side pressure to just above the point the low-pressure switch engages and stay there, you will have the best conditions for cooling. Consider: there's high-pressure, liquid R134 entering the evaporator through an orifice. To cool, the liquid must evaporate (after the orifice). It'll do this best when the low side is at the lowest pressure.



But remember that when the compressor is disengaged, the low-pressure side pressure will rise to about 45 PSI, meaning that evaporation is being reduced as the low-pressure side pressure increases. Your best cooling will come when the compressor sucks the low side down to about 25 PSI and stays there in a steady state.



Alas, the steady state varies with ambient temperature. When the air is cooler, the compressor will cycle on and off more often. When it's *extremely* hot and humid, the compressor will cycle less frequently.



I would say if you live where it's usually hot and humid, put a little more R134 in. If you live where it's cooler or less humid, put a little less in.



My A/C has been leaking for years. So before a trip, I've been adding enough R134 to make the system suck the low-side pressure down to 28-34 PSI. And I would get decent cooling. I really need to pull the dash and install the evap I bought from a Memphis member some years ago. I *know* it's been leaking since '98. And, by now after nearly 13 years, it's gotta be nearly plugged with mold and other black carp.
 
... . don't forget to make sure the clutch fan is engaged, or you have a larger fan in front of the a/c condensor. Without adequate airflow, the condensor can't cool the freon properly, resulting in excessive head pressure and poor cooling. I put a tractor together yesterday... . low side would go to 35, head pressure/high side, goes to 390 (at which point the high pressure switch opens the circuit) until the fan comes on, then it's 32 and 225. Your condensor should be clean, as well. We discussed this the other day in another thread about how dirty condensors can be, and how it can affect A/C operation. It's been my experience with the 2nd gen dodges, that if the head pressure is over 225/250, there is a problem somewhere, typically in airflow through the condensor, either from lack of a fan or being stopped up. Personally, it sounds like what you have, as your head pressures are a little too high. You may have too much freon in it, as well, but before purging it, I'd suggest a good washing of your condensor and checking your clutch fan.
 
You guys have this covered and with current data for the model, but i remember that for my old '98 the manual specifically says to check the center outlet temperature. If within spec, leave pressures alone, even if they seem low!
 
If you didn't find a repair the leak, then using the vacuum pump didn't help. In fact, it probably just pulled air into the system. It is also pretty obvious from the previous posts that the system is overcharged. You need to recover the R134a, replace all the O-rings (easy job) and replace your accumulator (it contains the filter/drier and is cheap) and then pressure test, leak check, evacuate and then weigh in the correct amount of refrigerant.
 
Best way to check for leaks is to pull it into vacuum as high as you can get, then seal it up and see if it holds the vacuum. If it will hold for 30 minutes without dropping, then you are pretty well sealed up.

I had to double an o-ring on a truck once because the factory o-ring was 1-1/2 thickness, but otherwise identical to the ones I had to replace them. With only one o-ring it would leak, with two, it sealed up fine, but was a little tight getting the fitting together.
 
You guys have this covered and with current data for the model, but i remember that for my old '98 the manual specifically says to check the center outlet temperature. If within spec, leave pressures alone, even if they seem low!

Pretty much true. What I would like to see in this thread to help me understand, in the following order are:
1. What the ambient temperature was.
2. What the temperature at the center A/C outlet was.
3. What RPM the pressures were measured at.


If you didn't find a repair the leak, then using the vacuum pump didn't help. In fact, it probably just pulled air into the system. It is also pretty obvious from the previous posts that the system is overcharged. You need to recover the R134a, replace all the O-rings (easy job) and replace your accumulator (it contains the filter/drier and is cheap) and then pressure test, leak check, evacuate and then weigh in the correct amount of refrigerant.

A leak would likely only pull air in through the low side, not the high side, and only during fill. Gordon told us that the situation was "from the passage of time and normal leakage. " It's a 2001 truck and the A/C performance fell off last year. Nine years is pretty good with no recharges.

Best way to check for leaks is to pull it into vacuum as high as you can get, then seal it up and see if it holds the vacuum. If it will hold for 30 minutes without dropping, then you are pretty well sealed up.

-snip-

30 minutes to hold vacuum is a good test. When I pulled out the dashboard some years ago for the rotten heater core, I rebuilt the A/C system at the same time. I got it to hold vacuum overnight, because I didn't want to do that nasty job again soon.

Some comments.
Having a dashboard temperature that's "25 degrees below ambient" is a poor benchmark. I live in Metro Phoenix, and when I am in traffic and it's 115F outside, that drop would bring the vent temperature to a "mere" 90 degrees. Obviously that is not going to be acceptable. When the A/C in my truck is in proper order, I can get 42 degrees at the center vent, third click, on recirculate when it's 115 F outside. Now if the ambient temperature was, say, 80 degrees, and the center vent temperature was 25 degrees lower, that would put it at 55 degrees. It would feel good, but still not be correct. At an ambient outdoor 80 degrees, the A/C in our Dodges should be capable of making it uncomfortably cold inside the cab.

I think that something is still wrong here. I am going to go out on a limb and make some long distance suggestions. And I'll quote from the troubleshooting chart that Bob 4x4 posted because that is the way to go at the problem. (And I had a similar issue, once upon a time. :rolleyes:)

I think that this is the key area that you need to focus in on:

LOW SIDE PRESSURE IS TOO LOW, AND HIGH SIDE PRESSURE IS TOO HIGH. 1. Restricted refrigerant flow through the refrigerant lines. 1. (Refer to Plumbing/Caution - Refrigerant Hoses/Lines/Tubes Precautions) in this group. Inspect the refrigerant lines for kinks, tight bends or improper routing. Correct the routing or replace the refrigerant line, if required.
2. Restricted refrigerant flow through the a/c orifice tube. 2. (Refer to Plumbing/A/C Orifice Tube/Diagnosis and Testing) in this group. Replace the liquid line, if required.
3. Restricted refrigerant flow through the a/c condenser. 3. (Refer to Plumbing/A/C Condenser/ Removal/Installation) in this group. Replace the restricted a/c condenser, if required.


I think that the screen on your truck's A/C orifice tube is clogged up. The tube is a $12 to $25 part, depending on where you get it. You should also replace the accumulator at the same time, as scotmartin has suggested. (The accumulator also serves as a moisture filter, and is probably fully saturated by now, anyway. ) And while you are at it, you should replace as many of the green O-Rings as you can reasonably get to. You will save yourself a lot of time and effort if you buy a tiny bottle of O-Ring installation goo, which acts like honey and makes them go on 300% easier than using regular PAG oil.

Also, bear in mind that R-134 systems seem to be a lot more finicky about the weight of refrigerant in the system than the of R-12 systems did. In the old days, an extra half-pound of R-12 made no difference. Now, even an extra ounce of R-134 will actually reduce the cooling capability of your system. All of our trucks should have identical A/C system volumes, but in reality they do not. I have found that mine works best with exactly two ounces less than what the factory sticker calls for. I have determined this by using the gauges, the center vent temperature and the charge scale.

There's a mail-order A/C outfit based in Phoenix that also has an advice and discussion forum. They can probably help, and their parts prices are pretty good. AMA Automotive Air Conditioning Parts & Equipment - Compressors Condensers Accumulators Expansion Va
It's where I buy my parts, because they are local (it gets hot here) and because they have never steered me wrong. And they can fabricate anything!

A word of warning, though: Always use a Mopar evaporator if you have to do the dash removal. This really matters. All other parts are negotiable.

Disclaimer: I am not an A/C tech, nor have I ever played one on TV.
 
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