Air Filter restriction???

[Fireman]

I'll admit that 50 hp seems to be a mighty tall claim, BUT it is possible. No piece of paper, plastic, or metal can make horsepower. ONLY fuel and air can make horsepower. To meet an engines potential one must be able to get fuel and air into (and out of) their engines. If the engine is restricted enough, a good intake and exhaust system could help make suprising amounts of hp. I have seen honest 20% gains in hp of motorcycles with the addition of a free flowing air filter and exhaust. It was the greatest amount of hp for the least amount of $ you could get.

I still say it is a pretty tall claim, but experence tells me not to go calling anyone a liar.

my $. 02
Fireman

BTW I would like to see them take Prarie Dogs challenge, it would show confidence in their product nd the claims they have made. I'd even be willing to allow a variance of +/- 10%

 

[CKimball]

sounds like free advertising here folks... buyer beware!!. .

Cameron:-{}

 

[BillGotthelf]

Stock 6 sp HO on dyno ran 256hp at rear wheels pulling 50% flow restriction. Remove filter cover= 252 on 2nd run. I'll be waiting for TST's P-Max 3 to come out-I like the sound of 120 more RWHP without raising the fuel rail pressure ( a definate no-no) that some others people are doing.

 

[Prairie Dog]

I think they meant 50 more with a stock engine. At any rate I didn't realize they were located over in Idaho. To tell the truth, I'd rather lose and pay for 50 H. P. than win and only get 25 H. P (which is the most I think it can do IMHO). My intention was not to flame, after all, no one from Bully Dog has made this claim in a public forum or through advertising or did I miss something again? We may be enjoying the simple over zealousness of a dedicated sales person. At any rate, I invite our friends at Bully Dog to contact me via E-mail at -- email address removed -- if their interested. I want to keep things friendly here as I do believe they're a great bunch of folks providing equally good products.

Cameron's rite of course but I don't mind being part of the capitalist machine if it's for a descent co.



By the way wantmoreHP, Yes that's the same Monroe! If you haven't been there in awhile you wont believe how it's grown.

 

[Prairie Dog]

I called Bully Dog today and here's the scoop. Their filter alone makes 10 to 12 H. P. , on top of this they supply a piece that goes over you MAP sensor and fools the computer into supplying more fuel. This results in a total increase of about 40 to 45 H. P. , one time they even saw 50 H. P.

Most of us believed 50 H. P with an air filter alone wasn't likely and indeed it's not. I was also told the only evidence that the filter had been installed (if you want to change it back for a visit to the dealer) would be scarring to the screws that hold the MAP sensor. I don't plan on pursuing this challenge any further as we weren't told about the sensor treatment. I do plan on installing one of their intakes soon because $289 for 45 ponies is a steal! It also reduces EGT by 100 and installs w/o any mod to the truck (like cutting or drilling).

By the way, they also have a chip we can install that brings the total up to something like 70+ HP.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Sensor Piece

I would be interested to know what this "sensor piece" does to the MAP sensor. It would have to fool it to think there was more boost. I would rather have something that plugged into it rather than remove it and put a physical piece on it which could possibly become dislodged and sucked into the engine



Vaughn

 

[BillGotthelf]

Have any of you guys ever seen a mass airflow sensor? By buying a larger (they are sized in millimeters) one for most imports, mustangs, F-150's or camaros you can flow more air so you can use larger gas injectors. The sensor looks like (in most cases) an aluminum square that the intake is plmbed into and out of. Inside the square is a fine wire going across the square. There is a electrical plug which supplies voltage and records the amount of electricity required to keep the electric wire (conductor) at a constant temp. This tells the engines computer how much air is flowing into the engine. How- as more air flows into engine the sensor uses more electric to keep wire at constant temp. Thsi is just one sensor the gas engines computer uses to determine fuel, timing, etc. The 2003 Cummins does not have a mass air flow sensor.

 

[Rockcrawler]

Upped FP a bad thing??

A general comment was made that enhancing power thru raised fuel pressure is bad. I'm not saying this is incorrect but can you support (with more than general opinion) why? Is Mark Chapple promoting this thought?



What's the stock pressure? how much is it being raised? Didn't Cummins do exactly that with the 03 engines - raise the pressure? raising pressure has been used with gas engines for yrs. Do we know that none of the previous gen "chips" or boxes altered fuel pressure. My recollection is that the higher fp of course adds more fuel but also improves atomization which leads to better efficiencies



Not trying to start a contest- just looking for something to support the claims.

 

[d90boy]

I agree with the thought that higher pressure will yield better atomization. Through all the different injection systems on the 5. 9 Cummins there has been a goal to continually raise injection pressures in order to reduce emissions. Emissions is what I would say is the driving force behind the evolution of the B series. I think stock pressure peaks at around 26,000 psi and some experts feel the pressure pump should not be forced into raising them even higher. I don't know what specific system raising rail pressure has an adverse effect on but it seems to be on the mind of many.



I thought it would be an advantage when installing larger injectors. The larger holes perhaps not atomizing quite as well would be helped out by the high pressure?

 

[Prairie Dog]

Vaughn, I'm a little worried about sucking in that piece too now that I think about it. I also wonder if they would sell us just that piece so I can keep the stock look of the air cleaner and still use my AFE.

By the way, I don't think its a Mass Air Flow sensor but only a Mass Air Plenum which are two very different things. MAP= cheap,

MAF= $$$.

 

[Bob4x4]

OK guys. . there is no mass air flow sensor on the 03!there is a dual function sensor in the filter cover. It is an inlet air temp and pressure sensor. They both work off a 5v referance.



Bob

 

[jimnance]

Re: Upped FP a bad thing??

Originally posted by Rockcrawler

A general comment was made that enhancing power thru raised fuel pressure is bad. I'm not saying this is incorrect but can you support (with more than general opinion) why? Is Mark Chapple promoting this thought?



What's the stock pressure? how much is it being raised? Didn't Cummins do exactly that with the 03 engines - raise the pressure? raising pressure has been used with gas engines for yrs. Do we know that none of the previous gen "chips" or boxes altered fuel pressure. My recollection is that the higher fp of course adds more fuel but also improves atomization which leads to better efficiencies



Not trying to start a contest- just looking for something to support the claims.

I've been told that more fuel without an increase in airflow will result in higher EGT's. It is my understanding that that is part of the reason that installation of a boost elbow is generally necessary when putting on a box.



If you can keep EGT's in check, and don't mind paying the fuel bill then more fuel is good!

 

[jimnance]

Originally posted by Bob4x4

OK guys. . there is no mass air flow sensor on the 03!there is a dual function sensor in the filter cover. It is an inlet air temp and pressure sensor. They both work off a 5v referance.



Bob

Isn't measuring incoming air temperature and pressure another way of determining the mass of air coming into the engine?



If the engine THINKS that you are getting a colder, higher pressure airflow won't it want to supply more fuel to keep the correct air-fuel ratio?



I too question 50 HP increase. Sounds like snake oil to me. However, what they are saying makes some sense. Maybe five or ten horsepower I would guess. It's hard to imagine an induction system change that would yield more than that.



Also, IF what they are saying was close to the truth, the programming of most fuel boxes may be far off. Too much fuel and not enough air. I'd be concerned about combining both items and what it might do to EGT's.

 

[rbattelle]

I never meant to offend anyone by my comment that Bullydog is pulling our leg by claiming an air intake provides 50 Hp. Most sincere apologies if I have.



That said, it appears my skepticism was well-founded.



As for computing mass flow rate based on temperature and pressure, you need one other piece of information: the cross-sectional area of the flow passing through the sensor. If we assume that particular sensor is facilitating measurement of inlet air flow rate, then the ECM must be programmed with the cross-sectional area at that point. Changing that area will change the equation and "de-calibrate" the sensor, so that true mass flow rate is no longer known. Make the area larger (without changing the pressure or temperature), and the computer will think there is much less mass flow than there actually is (causes a lean condition at the cylinder). Make the area smaller (again, without changing the pressure or temperature), and the computer will think there is lots more mass flow than there actually is (causing a rich condition at the cylinder).



Both of these conditions, however, would be detrimental to the engine performance due to sub-optimal fuel/air ratio. Too much fuel, and your delay angle increases (crank angle between introduction of fuel and start of pressure rise), which in turn increases the rate of pressure rise, which increases knock, and increases stress on pistons, connecting rods, and crankshaft.



My $0. 02... and then some!

 

[Bob4x4]

rbattelle,

Your thoughts ring true,that very scenario came into play developing a cold air system for the duramax



Bob

 

[jlevesque]

I was looking at the air filter minder for a 02 and a 03 and noticed

that the spring in the 03 is way lighter, maybe d. c. used the

wrong calibration for 03, and these boxes are not as restricted

as we thought.



just a thought



james

 

[Bob4x4]

James,Pull an 03 box off and check it out. The inlet looks to be a reasonable size,but the wall thickness is overkill making the actual opening very small. The filter area is also smaller than earlier models. It appears that silencing was the most important goal on this intake system. The turbo is along those same lines,the outlet is a generous size but if you reach inside you will find a small turbine wheel.



Bob

 

[tsi_2baad4u]

I read where some people are worried about water or other debris getting directly on the filter. Check out this site. http://www.outerwearsracing.com/frames.htm I use one of these on my K&N in my Eagle Talon since I put the filter in the fender for cold air. I live in the rainy NW as well. This not only repels water (repels does not equal submerged in water protection) but I very rarely have to clean my K&N, I just wipe off the outerwears and call it a day.



They can make one in any size/shape you want. I paid $15 for mine. I haven't taken any scientific measurements for pressure drop across the filter with and without it but I'm making roughly 450HP out of my 2. 0L 4 cylinder with it and it seems to flow enough for that.



Personally I plan on making a cowl induction hood for my '03 with about a 2" or 3" raise, a custom airbox and draw cold air from the cowl. Unfortunately that will take some time (i. e. years). It's hard to juggle time/money for a fast street car, building a racecar and now wanting to modify my new truck.