Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) ALERT - early 98.5 owners

[joel]

As some of you may have seen from the 911 forum, my engine died. One of the cylinders lost compression. 67K miles on the engine, so no problem, right? Carlin Dodge in Co. Springs has been great to work with and the diesel tech is very thorough.



So, today, he's finishing up the install of the new short block and goes to replace the rings on the injectors as part of the new install and finds that the injectors in the truck are the wrong ones and that they are likely the cause of the burned piston top. Mind you, I have not changed out injectors; the truck is stock except for a K&N and Amsoil. He does some research and finds that the injectors aren't pickup injectors at all (Bosch didn't mention what they were, just that they weren't Dodge application injectors). I said, no problem, get the right ones and install them, too. Simple enough, right? Well, now Cummins is saying that they couldn't possibly have built that engine with those injectors. They haven't denied the warranty claim... yet, but I can see where this is heading for Monday AM when they open. I'm going to remain optimistic over the weekend because if I don't, I'm probably going to break something.



Anyway, the part number for the injectors in my truck are (last 3 digits specify the application) 653. They should be 629s and the RVs are 635s. I'm thinking my truck can't be the only one out there with the wrong injectors in it from the factory. The truck was built in 3/98 in St. Louis. The original engine SN was 56442914. If you have one of these early 24Vs and have changed out the injectors, what was the number on the OEM ones? If you haven't, you might want to take one out and have a look at the number to make sure you're not cooking your piston tops, too. Of course, it wouldn't hurt to have some other folks with these injectors to show Cummins. And you'll know that your engine is being slowly destroyed, too - hopefully before you hit 100K.



Sorry for the long post. If anyone has these incorrect injectors, please post here or PM me ASAP.

 

[MikeR]

Sounds like it might be time to consult a lawyer, 'cause if that technician wants to cause a stink about the warranty claim, he can.

At least with a lawyer behind you, maybe they can see that you're serious that you had left the truck as stock as the day you bought it.



Bummer.

 

[15w40]

Joel, The part number on my stock ECT injector is 0432193653. Engine No. 56440542, Build date: 03-16-98. If you can confirm that this injector is a problem, then it is a Cummins problem.

 

[joel]

the tech's been great - he's not the issue

He's just doing his job and doing it very well. I guess some techs don't pull the injectors and reseal them as part of a short block install, but new rings come with the kit. He found the injectors and called around to figure out what they were first, before calling Cummins. In fact, he only called Cummins after I told him to since I hadn't changed the injectors. But, he won't re-install those injectors and I don't want him to, either, if they're what caused the problem in the first place.



I'm going to go through the weekend with the attitude that Cummins is going to do the right thing and honor the warranty, including a new set of injectors. I have to or I'll spend this weekend sulking and stalking and slamming things.



Come Monday AM, if they balk in the least, I'll offer to swear out an affidavit for them. If they still resist, I'm going to find the nastiest, most rabid lawyer I can and not only will they pay for the repairs, but they'll pay me for the week of vacation I've lost so far, the extra gas this has caused me (i. e. injectors that have been too big and dumping extra gas into the engine for 67,000 miles) and if I can make it happen, pay dearly for calling me a liar in the first place.



But, hopefully it won't come to that and by Tuesday, I'll be on my way. Where I don't know, this has already ruined our plans to drive to Maine since we won't have the time now. And the wife not getting her lobster might even be more of a force to reckon with than any lawyer!!

 

[M Barnett]

I hope some mechanics chime in here. It doesn't seem to me the injectors would cause the problem. Did your truck always smoke when you give it fuel? A lot of us here are running big injectors and I haven't read of any problems with engine damage from them.

Michael

 

[joel]

no, only lots of blue smoke at startup

But the score pattern on the top of the cylinder/piston that went bad matched the spray pattern of the incorrect injectors. It's not just that they dumped extra fuel into the engine, the spray pattern is wrong also. I guess it shoots almost directly sideways instead of down into the piston bowl. The piston that was affected was so loose in the cylinder that it could easily be moved from side to side.



The initial symptoms were loss of mileage (from 18/19 to 15 or so), loss of power and black smoke when under load where there had never been any noticeable before.



I haven't had a chance to track down the application for the injectors that were in my truck, but the whole number is: 0 432 193 653. The stock ones should be 0 432 193 629. Those are Bosch numbers. If anyone knows or has access to a Bosch application publication, please let me know. Thanks.

 

[SSeifert]

I had the 653's also for about 90,000 miles then switched to DDIII's. still get 19 mpg. not sure if that helps you.

 

[RACE427]

"B" Series

According to a reputable Cummins trainer, our "B" Series Engine in the Dodge Ram is the only application for this engine. In other words, this "B" series is only used in the Dodge Ram and no other vehicle. The only trucks that use an engine very similar to ours is UPS. He claims the Dodge application is a stand alone design. Our engines are not even ISB's. ISB is a completely different engine. I was surprised to hear this myself. The truth will be known as I am off to Diesel school in about 2 weeks.

 

[A Johnson]

Joel, my information says your engine S/N 56442914 was supposedly built with part # 3943928 injector. This is the Cummins P/N and will not be on the injector itself. I give this in hopes that someone will have access to a Bosch x-reference and compare it with the Bosch P/N, I don't here at home. Usually the Cummins number will incorporate the last three or four digits of the Bosch number. This doesn't seem to be the case here.



Did your technician say if he found anything wrong with the injector that was in the failed cylinder? Cracked body , blown tip etc. ?



Just thinking out loud here,is this the same dealer that you bought the truck from? If not, I wonder if the dealer you bought it from could have installed bigger injectors before you bought the truck. I have heard of this kind of thing happening with the rack stops on the 12- valves. The idea being that you would be impressed with the performance when comparing to other brands.



TGreco, no intentions of starting a flame, but I cant think of any real physical differences between the Dodge 24 valve B and the ISBs' that are in thousands of motorhomes, freightliner midrange, transit buses etc. so I don't really understand the comment from the Cummins trainer. --A Johnson

 

[joel]

UPDATE

First of all, thanks everyone for your inputs. Here's what I found out today.



According to a 2001 Bosch catalog/cross reference publication, the 0 432 193 653 was superseded by the 0 432 193 629. The note (for the 653) says, "When stock is depleted, use 0 432 193 629. " The 629 line doesn't show compatability with the 653 and 2 of the Bosch dealers I talked to today, using 2002 publications, showed the only compatable injector for the 653 is the 665. So, at least with this info, my warranty worries are over.



Now, as for the injectors themselves - are they the right ones or not? I don't know and plan to have 629s installed - under warranty.



A Johnson, you are correct - the 653 Cummins part number is 3943928 and if you looked that up based on my engine serial number, then Cummins will come up with the same thing Monday AM. The tech did not say anything about one of the injectors being cracked or damaged but I plan on being there first thing Monday AM to check them with him. In his defense, he had never seen these injectors in a Ram before, so he probably didn't look for damage; just assumed they had the wrong specs. I'll educate him Monday AM. So far, they've been pretty good people to work with down there and he has a tester to check pop-off pressures and visually look at the spray. I'll have him put all 6 on the tester, but since he sounded pretty sure that it was an injector issue, I'm going to insist on a new set. This is not the dealer I bought the truck from - that was back up in WA. I had the same thought and called them. I've had a good relationship with them since I bought the truck and they said they did not install any different injectors. I had ordered the truck custom any, so it wasn't one on the lot used to "impress" potential buyers. Glad I'm not the only one who thought of that, though!



I'll close out this post Monday after I get back from the dealer and let you all know how it went. If I get any different mpgs, powers etc, I'll start a new thread to let you know. Thanks again, everyone!

 

[RACE427]

Flames?

No offense taken, I am only going by what the Cummins Rep told me, I will see for sure when I am at a Diesel Course I have signed up for. It will be lots of fun to give a look see at what makes these "B" Series Rattle and Roll !!!!!

 

[Jack in Alaska]

98.5 injectors???

Joel,

My 98. 5 24v was made in St. Louis on 5/98.

Engine No. is 56455072.

The injectors that came in it had 629 as the last digits.

I replaced them last summer with 275's (at 85k)but neglected to record the no. on them.

Hope this helps and good luck with your warranty.

Let all of us know what the outcome is.

Jack

 

[MD500E]

the part number on my early 98. 5 is 0432 193 652. Hope this helps.

 

[joel]

Got the truck back.

Picked it up yesterday afternoon. Before I went in, I made one final call to Cummins to verify the injector #s. They told me, based on the engine SN that they built it with 653s. They also said that 10# fuel pressure at idle is within limits (but I'll keep my eye on it!).



So a little while later, the dealer calls and says Dodge/Star Tech/Cummins approved the warranty work but still denies that they would ever put that injector into a 24V engine. "But since they're only 230HP injectors... . " they honored the warranty. I don't get it... Cummins says yep, that's the way we built the engine. Dodge says no way - we'd never put those injectors in that engine. They put the original injectors back in and called it a day. Wonder what would happen if I put 629s (the "spec'd" injectors)? They'd probably say I altered the engine and void my warranty, huh?



Anyway, sounds a lot better and seems to run better. I'll be able to check on it in a while after a few tanks of fuel. The worksheet says the #3 rod was worn and the #3 piston was loose in the cylinder. Changed out the short block, new oil, new coolant, recharged the A/C (COOOOLD!!) and bolted everything back on. I had asked them to check the lift pump pressure but I don't see any evidence of that. I had told them it was 10 at the injector inlet and they said that's within limits, too, so they either just verified that and didn't document it or they didn't do it. I must admit, by Monday, I was pretty anxious for my truck back and they were feeling a bit of... pressure.



Overall, I'd say they're a good service department - I didn't buy the truck there, so I can't speak about the sales dept. The tech seems to know his stuff and be pretty reasonable about things. I think if he had pulled out 275s, he just would have re-installed them w/o a hitch but since he hadn't seen the 653s before, he figured that was the issue. He's still pretty sure they're putting out more fuel than the 629s based on his bench tester. I'll probably swap them out pretty soon anyway for the 275s. I think they took a little longer than they could/should have, but, like all the other dealers around here, they have many diesels and few diesel techs to work with. I would recommend their service dept overall (Carlin Dodge in Colorado Springs).



Now, the big problem, as I see it: I have no idea what caused that cylinder to fail like that. They did put all 6 injectors on the test bench and do a visual inspection. They all seem to be in proper working condition. Is one of those injectors a ticking time bomb already starting to destroy one of my brand new cylinders? I guess another call to Cummins or maybe Dodge customer service is in order tomorrow. Anyone else have any suggestions?

 

[Kent Kuykendall]

I checked my OEM #'s and they are the 653's



Kent

 

[dezeldog]

Just replaced inj. today with 275s my engine# 56439233 and the stock injs. 652s

Jim

 

[GLASMITHS]

275's

dezeldog-That has been on mind for a while Good an excuse as any I am not a mech, though I can if needed. There isn't anyone here that I really trust, so will do it myself. do you just unscrew the injector, the large nut on the end of the line



I have a service manuel and can read, but if you have never done something, it's all Greek.

 

[dezeldog]

275s

Glasmiths, I was going to have a friend do it for me and after doing some reading here I thought "what the he!!" I'll try it. There are some good install instructions available. It wasn't to bad. Took me about 3. 5 and the engine was HOT. I'd say take your time and go for it. I'd be glad to help if you have any?????

Also if you have a 98. 5 it's a good idea to replace the connector tubes. factor definitly goes up



Jim

 

[GLASMITHS]

It appears to me that the tubes are made on to the nut If they were, it would be hard to get them off. May wait until I go over to Houston again and schedule for some place over there.



I went to the local Cummins dealer to inquire about a lift pump. The young punk said"if you have the Cummins part number I will look it up". I thought that was his job? Any way, I just walked out.



Thanks for the offer-I'll look at the book and see what it entails.

 

[dezeldog]

If you do a search there are some good inst. Once you disconnect the fuel line the tube just pry's out.



Jim