Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Another 24 valve/low power condition

[jhellmers]

I am new to TDR, so please bear with me on this thread and it's format...

I recently traded in my 97 12-valve 3500 club cab/turbo/automatic/3. 54 for a 2002 24-valve quad cab/3500/automatic/4. 10. I tow a race car/hauler@about 7500# fully loaded. The new truck is a dog compared to the old truck!. With the new truck, I cannot pull a 3% grade without coming out of overdrive and getting 5-7 mpg (note that the hauler was empty for this test (about 3500#). ) Out of overdrive, I run out of rpm's trying to keep up with traffic. Even empty, the truck takes about 7-8 seconds to go from 55-65mph with the pedal floored (but not shifted out of overdrive. ) The dealer flashed the ECM with TSB 18-14-01 (they thought that was the right one,) but no change. The dealer checked the boost with their diagnostic tool and at full throttle, it was about 32 psi @ 100% engine load. Also, average mileage empty is about 12-14 mpg. I have a little over 6500 miles on the motor and know that it's still tight, but I have a feeling that it's not going to get better. Any suggestions? I really don't want to trade this thing in and have to get a 24-valve H-O/6 speed in order to be able to pull my hauler!

 

[Diesel Freak]

32 PSI? are you sure? that is WAY to high for a stock truck... ... . and even if you really had boost that high the ECM would defuel and you would have no power at all.



If the Tech said you had peak boost of 32 PSI, and did not see a problem..... DO NOT GO BACK TO THAT DEALER FOR SERVICE!



Max boost for your truck should be close to 19 PSI.



Find the closest Cummins shop and go talk to them about your problem.

 

[jwilliams3]

Take it to a different dealer, or a qualified Diesel mechanic (like a Cummins service center).

Sounds like you have a problem.

 

[Diesel Freak]

Ask a competent tech to check to see if the wastgate is operating correctly. If that does not fix it, then replace the MAP sensor.

 

[pwr2tow]

Boost is relevent to how much fuel the engine is getting. The more boost, the more fuel that is being add, the more power you should have. I think Your service guy is wrong, My truck with only Stage 1 injectors will only build 30lb's of boost and then level off at 28lb's. I have 3:54 gearing and I can climb a 3% grade without slowing down and that is without the power box on, your 4:10's should do better.



Ron

 

[Chipstien]

I agree....

take it to another dealer. Than when its fixed put a TTPM or EZ on and your towing woes are gone.

 

[Shooter]

Well you shouldn't be towing in O/D. For that weight the 3:54 would be adequate as the fuel mileage will fall like a rock over about 2100 rpm.



3:54 will give about 60 mph at 2100. 2000 at 75 in overdrive.



does sound like you have a low power problem but I DON'T think your local 5 screw stealer will be able to do anything about it. #@$%!



32# boost is incorrect. The ecm will defuel at 21# and if boost exceeds 21 you will set a code and get a check engine lite.

 

[danandamy]

Just a wild guess here.......

... . but from the sounds of it, I think we can all agree that one of two things occured when you took it to the dealer.

1. Their tech doesn't know how to read the guage (always possible)

2. They checked for codes and didn't find anything so they blew you off and told you a story to make you think everything was fine ( at the DEALERSHIP?! NO WAY!!!)

I'm left wondering only one thing. Why in the world did you trade off a good 12valver for a lift pump eater?!



P7100dan

 

[jhellmers]

I checked again with the tech. He said that the boost actually spiked at about 36#. This was read on the diagnostic tool that plugs into the port under the dash next to the right foot. I was driving and he was reading the instrument. Heres a twist... we took out a new (64 miles)"twin" to my truck that was on the lot and it gave the same performance and boost readings!. (So ether they have 2 "sick" 3500's or there is nothing wrong. I don't agree with the latter!!!)I tried to check the wastegate for operation. Should I be able to move this by hand ? I couldn't. A friend of mine has a 2001 2500 H-O/6-Speed and we couldn't work his wastegate by hand ether. One thing I noted: my wastegate is mounted about 5:00 on the turbo and has a small "hard" curved brake line type of line that runs from the turbo housing to it. The wastegate on the H-O is at about the 2:30 position with a flexible hose connected with brass fittings. (Wrong Turbo/Wastegate?) The next thing he wants to check is the fuel pressure. I have an appointment on Wed. , so this should be interesting. I kinda feel that I should concentrate on ether fuel pressure or the map sensor as suggested. I keep everyone up to date.

In defense of the tech. and the dealership ; they are a small outfit and are very good in dealing with people and dealing with problems. They said that they rarely have any complaints regarding the Cummins (maybe people don't know what to really expect), so they are inexperenced when it comes to fixing them. In regards to the comment that I shouldn't tow in O. D. , 4. 10 are the only gear available on a 3500/Automatic (so I was told and read in the brochure), and I don't plan to putt along at 55-60 out of O. D. on the highway when towing. In in regards to why I traded in the 97 12 valve for a new one, the old truck was showing signs of rusting out, the transmission was acting wierd, I wanted the two extra doors in the back and the deal I got was very affordable. Thanks a lot to everyone for your comments. Its great to be a part of a group of knowledgable and caring Cummins enthusiasts!!!

 

[Snow man]

If everything checks out,you may have to "bomb it slightly,to get satisfaction,I suggest an EDGe EZ,it will wake it up big time towing. Im very surprised the 02 ,should outperfrom the 97 by a long shot,my dad's stock 01 auto would run away from my 96 12 auto,any chance your 97 was bombed,by a previous owner,and you never knew?

 

[Floor It]

In stock form the 24v will not be as good as the old 12v,-mpg or low end TQ. The best thing you can do is add an Edge EZ,so you dont have to splice the pump wire and void warrenty.

 

[C1B1DIESEL]

My 2 cents worth.

The reason for this is that the sensor on the 2002 uses absolute pressure. meaning it will start out at 14. 7 psi and stop at psi 34 -36 psi with will be about 20-22 psi boost.

This reading can get some techs if there not aware of it.

 

[CTRam]

The diesel tech at my local stealer had the same problems with his personnal 02 2500. Turned out to be a bad injection pump, 3000 miles on the truck and it took him 1600 miles to figure it out. (glad I do my own repairs, with the help of my fellow TDR members)

 

[jhellmers]

Sorry for not getting back with you guys in a timely manner. Here's an update: Checked the lift pump pressure with the original pump: 11-12psi@idle - 5-6@WOT. Dealer replaced pump with a new one. Results:12-13psi@idle - 6-7@WOT!. Truck now has 7K on it. Now they (the dealership)is going to replace the fuel filter, overflow valve and the "sock" on the fuel line inlet in the tank. (I don't know if they go bad, but there are 300 on DC backorder!) I will have them change 1 item at a time so that we can be as accurate as possible in what works and what does not.

Also note that the dealer is getting fed up with the run-around and attitude of the diesel tech. @ Star. This person is no help and is only complicating matters. If it continues to happen, I have told the dealer that I will contact DC directly to see if an attitude adjustment is in order.

 

[Puffin Smoke]

I wouldnt expect a call back to soon from them. . Heck I never got one back when I got fed up with my stealer over my steering problems. :-{} . . #@$%!

 

[Archive]

try this:



http://dodgeram.org/tech/tsb/1999/18-21-99.htm

 

[jhenderson]

Another 24 valve low-power situation

Just an update on my low-power, poor milage problem. Traded my '92, 12 valve, 5-speed, for a 2002, 24 valve, 6-speed. Got twice the valves and half the milage, seems like no more power. Have been back to the dealer several more times, got the same basic response as you, no codes, no problem. Service manager seems to be a nice guy, but he also seems to realize that I'm not going to quit until my truck is right. We are in the process of trying to get Dodge to sublet the warranty diagnostics and repair to the local Cummins repair facility. Will keep you informed.

 

[jhellmers]

Hey Guys, Sorry again for not getting back in a timely manner. Just thought I would give you an update on my problem. Still fighting the low power problem. Went back to the dealer and they replaced the overflow valve, the fuel filter and the large filter/separator/gauge assy. in the tank to try and correct the low fuel pressure problem. Did all that - No Change! Replaced the pump again (3rd. time)and now I have about 14# @idle and about 10# WOT during the "stall test. " The truck runs a bit better, but I still have problems pulling 7000# (especially if it's windy or not flat!. ) They (the dealer), got permission from DC to take the truck to a local Cummins shop for check-out and they would foot the bill. Took the truck up last week. The tech. there checked EVERYTHING! - intercooler, wastegate, fuel pressure, pump calibration , leaks, etc. Everything looked ok. We tried another 235hp. calibration, but the truck actually seemed worse performance wise. They offered to up the calibration to a 245/505 calibration, but with the warranty in mind, I passed (for now. ) Plus I wasn't sure how it would work on a 235 hp. motor.

Interesting thing. The Cummins tech. had (and I actually read it) a "TSB" from Cummins that stated that if a customer came in with a 24 valve complaining of low power, especially while towing, AND that owner had previously owned a 12 valve truck, to inform the customer that the 12 valve motors were 30hp/60lb-ft UNDERRATED, while the 24 valve motors are at actual ratings!!! So I guess I am back @ square 1. My choices are:

1. ) Have the 245/505 calibration put in and risk warranty issues (however, my dealer stated that knowing my driving habits and truck usage, he would cover any drivetrain warranty issues!,)

2. ) Bomb the thing, perhaps with an EZ.

3. ) Trade it!!!



By the way; does anyone know anything about the "D-BOX" 65hp/185 lb-ft "no wire cutting" box from SuperChips? Seems like an awful lot of power from a "no splice" box.



Sorry for being long winded.

 

[Ethdee]

How about #1 AND #2?



Jim

 

[Big White Beast]

Mine was a dog too.........

Hated the truck when I first got it. Lousy mileage (10. 5) and the 4:10's drove me nuts winding down the freeway. Power was okay untill I started loading the truck down. Complained for months at the dealer and DC. DC finally sent me to Cummins and they checked it all out. Even dynoed it. 165 HP from the factory. Cummins told me that the 215 rating was flywheel and not at the tires so this was within norms.



I found someone and swapped for the 3:56 gears. Did absolutely nothing for mileage and low end power was now gone. I was ready to torch the truck and take the insurance money.



Then my happiest day was when I found the TDR.



Unfortunately about $5K later I have the truck of my dreams. Thank god it's a work truck and I can write all this off.



Take my advice and get the EZ. Singly the best mod I made. Don't get me wrong I wouldn't have the truck without the other mods but that was the best one. Gave me 2 MPG and plenty of power and the transmission held up to the added power.



Of course any time you do mods you should get gauges. And you really have to be careful because it's very addictive. Once you see how easy power gains are you crave more.



I just love going up hills in my 11K lb truck towing a trailer loaded down with huge reels of wire (3K lbs) and passing cars all the way up.



Garrett