ANOTHER *GREAT* oil analysis!

[Gary - K7GLD]

NVR FNISH - Brian - take note!



After a bit over 5000 miles on the Rotella T 15/40 oil in my Cummins (see sig below), I sent my oil to Blackstone for analysis - this was the second time I sent them a sample for analysis, and this one is even BETTER than the first, which had FEWER miles on the oil!



For the record, I use 3 bottles of STP every oil change, I have a FRANTZ toilet paper bypass oil filter installed, and I use that hated, leaky old K&N air filter... A WIX primary oil filter was used. Engine is at 114,000 miles.



Copper and lead content were HALF of last analysis, at 1 ppm ea.

Iron was the same, at 8 ppm.

Chromium was the same, at 1 ppm.

Silicon (dirt!) was 3 ppm



NO antifreeze or water detected.

Insoluables (soot, etc. ,) were less than . 4 ppm

Fuel dilution was less than . 5 ppm





I'd like to see how many owners using ANY brand oil and/or oil/air filters compare overall - since *I* use so many "snakeoil" products

in my engine...

 

[Cooker]

3 bottles of STP at every oil change. What STP are you using and where are you putting it?

 

[Midnite]

Gary, what interval are you using between bypass filter element changes? 3,000 mi. ? 5,000mi?



I'm right on the ragged edge of ordering a Gulf Coast Filter O-1 kit. Maybe a Christmas present to myself...



Mike

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

I checked out the http://www.wefilterit.com Frantz web site. . sounds pretty cool but...



All of the by pass filter systems seem to be WAY overpriced!!!



The frantz setup is basically a canister witha paper element that seems to be very simple. The amsoil setup is merely a dual filter remote mount with a bypass valve on the bypass filter. Both pretty mudane. the Frantz is $165 and the amsoil was over $200.



I think they are both good products but they are very expensive for what you get.



Does anyone know of a bypass setup that doen't cost a mint?



If you look at putting it on 3 cars/trucks and a tractor thats $600-900. OUCH!!



And then they get you for replacement filters for life.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Midnite - I *usually* will change the TP element ONCE at midpoint between oil changes.



Cooker - I use the STP standard oil treatment at the rate of 1 bottle per gallon of motor oil.



Mike - Barry, one of the fellas on this board is currently offering the Frantz TP filters at around $67 dollars as I recall - and keep in mind that with the TP filters, a refill is as near as the closest grocery store, and replacement "elements" are dirt cheap!

 

[dmurdock]

Just a question...

How can you really tell what the wear is if your using a super-efficient oil filter?? Seems to me that you could be grinding off tons of metal and as long as the filter catches it there won't be anything showing in the analysis... .



Anybody agree? disagree??

 

[Cooker]

dmurdock,

I couldn't agree more. This is something I have always thought about when everybody starts talking how great their oil analysis are.



Like the Amsoil guys that are saying they have XX thousand miles on their oil and wear was really low. Well they changed the filter at every X thousand miles and also may have had a ByPass filter. IMO the filter changes and bypass filter skew the true wear on the engine.



FTR - I'm not saying the Amsoil, or any oil run for XX thousand miles is bad, heck, if the oil holds up for over 10k it has to be good.



JMHO,

Ryan

 

[illflem]

dmurdock, I asked a similar question on the Noria message board about the effects of a magnetic drain plug on oil analysis. The conscious was that you look for trends in your analysis rather than actual ppm results. Going on the results of just one oil analysis is sort of like calculating your mpgs on one tank of fuel and calling it the average. One thing I've learned in doing research is that replication is essential or the data is worthless, it will take at least two oil tests after a modification to get true results. There will always be some wear metals making it though for the analysis. In other words it takes a few oil tests running the same filtration system and oil to get the real picture of what's going on. There are also contaminates that will make it though any filter such as anti-freeze, acids and fuel. Nice to catch these before it gets serious.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

The analysis "experts" will ALSO tell you that wear particles for our engines are largely made up of sub-micron sizes that are NOT filtered out by commonly used bypass systems - you guys are thinking most engine wear is composed (relatively speaking) of BOULDER sized particles, when actually, it's more like fine silt... Sure, a bypass filter WILL remove the OCASSIONAL larger stuff - as will the OEM filter - but THOSE size particles are rather rare, compared to the naturally occurring wear normally taking place in an engine - and as measured by conventional oil analysis.



The primary benefit in filtering crud smaller than the OEM filter will accomplish, is removal of that stuff still large enough to bridge the oil-film gap between internal engine surfaces, that act as a abrasive to critical surfaces. (Would we REALLY rather LEAVE that stuff circulating in our oil?) THAT, bypass filters do quite well - but remove sub-micron NORMAL wear particles that show in oil analysis?



Not hardly...



BUT shucks - if yer REALLY concerned about oil filters somehow "tilting" oil analysis readings, why not remove ALL filters - to obtain a "more accurate" and "honest" reading... .



Sometimes we get a bit SILLY in our reasoning, don't we!

 

[Sled Puller]

Gary,

Here is some silly for ya!





Perhaps that mighty fine GOO you poor into your pride and joy is the reason King Richard's last win was 1984!



Everybody else had switched to High Quality Synthetics, and he was still gumming the works up!LOL!



Gene

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

AT any rate - as long as the 'ol Cummins keeps hummin', and those EXCELLENT analysis reports keep commin' back, *I'll* stick with the nasty ol' "snake oil"... BY the way, what was YOUR last analysis? Care to share?



HMMMMmmmmm?

 

[Sled Puller]

Why shore!



Amsoil 5W-30 NO BYPASS. Full flow SDF- 80's changed at 7500 mile intervals, about 25,000 miles on the oil, about 7 months.

Amsoil FOAM air filter



BOMBed to 360 hp, lots of abuse, sled pulling, drag racing, etc.

iron-26

Chromium 1

Lead 2

Silicon- 6





Soot<1. 0

TBN 12. 1



No biggy. I really should run a By-pass, but hey, 111,000, why bother now? I will break it way before it wears out at this rate anyway.



Gene

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

MGM sez:



"I will break it way before it wears out at this rate anyway. "



Ain't it the truth!



In MY case, I'll either break it doing something stupid, or else IT will outlive ME!

 

[Archive]

RedNeck Oil Analysis.....





START : Find 2 new un-built engines.



STEP 1 : Weigh parts that slide.



STEP 2 : Put parts into engine.



STEP 3 : Flog 'em a bunch of miles.



STEP 4 : Drain oil and Gut 'em.



FINISH : The HEAVIEST wheelbarrow wins!



BTW. (NO pies, charts, graphs, PPM's, sillycon, or pesky specimen bottles to litter up the front yard. )

 

[barrfishe1]

Gary-KJ6Q



Fleetguard Monitor oil analysis-dealer installed oil and air filters (Mopar) at 3800 miles on the oil--Premium Blue 15w40



Engine has 55436 miles on it oil warm when drained and sample taken after a few seconds of draining.



copper and lead 0

iron 13

chromium 0

silicon 3

sodium 3

potassium 1

soot < 0. 1

fuel dilution 0. 5



I bought this truck used, and it has no engine mods.

 

[amsoilman]

Mark_Kendrick,

aparently you have never seen the insides of the Amsoil by-pass elements, as they are Not just two filters on a remote mount with a by-pass valve on the by-pass filter. take one apart sometime... ... . you will be surprised!



Wayne

 

[Cooker]

I'm not trying to argue with anyone here, but I received this information in an email from www.noria.com (the oil analysis experts) today and I thought it was revelant to the topic we were discussing of By-Pass filters possibly affecting the actual oil analysis and primarily the wear particle numbers.



Q & A

"I've heard that the addition of by-pass filters offer advantages over just full-flow filters on diesel engines. What are these advantages?"



Some solid contaminants (dirt, wear particles, etc. ) lead to abrasion and wear (rings, liners, cam, bearings, etc). Other contaminants (soot, sludge, oxide insolubles, glycolic compounds, etc. ) can contribute to deposition formation in the combustion zone (crown land, ring lands, skirt) and valve area (valve seats/guides) of the engine. These deposits can also contribute to wear and combustion efficiency problems with engines.



Recent studies on the contaminant sensitivity of engines have found all of these solid contaminants to be important to engine reliability and efficient operation (relating to emissions, fuel economy, oil consumption, etc. ). These contaminants are typically suspended in crankcase lubricants in sizes ranging from submicron to more than 100 microns.



Typically the very best full-flow filters exhibit a capture efficiency of 50 percent at particle sizes 10-microns and above. Smaller soot suspension and polar insolubles that can also cause wear and deposits are not controlled by these full flow filters effectively. For this reason, compressed cellulose depth media used as by-pass filters can offer benefits in removing fine organic and inorganic particles. In combination with full- flow filters the benefits can be lower wear, lower oil consumption, higher combustion efficiency, and longer oil life. There are a variety of by-pass filters on the market including centrifugal separators.





Given the information above by the experts, it seems that a By-pass filter will remove the actual wear particles and also wear causing particles.



Again, I'm not trying to argue or start a war, but this information seems to answer the question that a By-pass filter can affect the results of an oil analysis and they could quite possibly skew the determination of the actual wear on an engine.



-Ryan

 

[Oil Man]

Cooker, You are right on.



When you do an oil analysis you do not get a particle count. A particle count gives you the PPM of 1 to 3 micron, 3 to 5 micron, 5 to 10 micron, 10 to 20 micron and 50 to 100 micron. Since a regular filter filters most things above about 30 microns there should not be many ppm's of microns above 30 microns. You would see a particle count something like this. 20,000 ppm of 1 to 3 microns, 10,000 ppm of 3 to 5 microns, 500 ppm of 5 to 10 microns, 100 ppm of 10 to 20 microns, 30 ppm of 20 to 50 microns and 3 ppm of 50 to 100 microns. After installing a bypass filter let's say a 3 to 5 micron filter you should see a great reduction if not almost all of the ppm of wear gone above 10 microns. This does not mean that you got less wear it only means that your oil is kept in better shape for longer oil changes. The wear or most of it is still there but the bypass filter took it out and masked the real wear rate. Yes there should be some % less wear but not a great %. Just a great looking oil analysis.



Kevin

 

[illflem]

Ryan, a bypass filter will skew the determination of the actual wear on an engine only if you treat the first oil analysis after installation as gospel. The first test will tell you how much your old filtration system was missing but it will require subsequent tests to develop a trend that can indicate a problem. As I said before, the best use of oil analysis is to look for changes in numbers between tests , not the actual numbers on just one test. Of course you need to heed the warning if any numbers on a single test are excessive. Also a bypass filter will not remove analysis results that determine whether the oil is suitable for extended change intervals, another important function of oil analysis.

 

[NVR FNSH]

Do any of the oil analysis outfits offer an oil filter analysis of some sort? That would give you the trending on engine wear.



Brian