Another ? on DTTs VB/TC

[Runaway]

Those of you who have this setup, have you noticed any increase in the TC draining out after sitting overnight? Especially those of you in the colder climates.

I have BD's VB and every morning after sitting overnight I have to wait an eternity for the TC to refill itself before I can move forward or backward. After this is done I have no further problems the rest of the day. The colder it gets, the more I wait...

This I feel is a drivability problem. I think someone posted that this happened to them after a VB was installed.

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99 QC/LB,ISB w/auto,4x4, 3. 54, VDO (trans, boost, pyro) Westin SS Nerf Bars, Westin Grille Guard, Contico tool box, CP Industries pivoting 5th wheel, Louverd 5th wheel tail gate, K&N, VA CPC, BD Valve Body, and Mag-Hytec transmission pan. 46271 miles (9/20/00)
00 28' Jayco 5th Wheel, 86 "Classic 16" Alumacraft, 00 Honda Rancher

[This message has been edited by Runaway (edited 12-10-2000). ]

 

[K_Arts]

Runaway - I will ask Bill K about this and see what he says... I will post the answer as soon as I get it.

Kevin

 

[Runaway]

Thanks K_Arts, either going to have the transmission upgraded or I am going to order a different truck. Right now I can order a ETH/DEE, trade my current truck for about the same price as having the transmission built up.

 

[Bill Kondolay]

Runaway,

Eternity is a very long time, now if we are talking about a minute or so this is relatively normal for most aftermarket valve bodies or shift kits.

The reason why it is more pronounced after the install of the valve body or shift kit is because of the lube charge circut that has been drilled. Depending on the drill size used in the lube circut the drainback can vary.

Also keep in mind that Chrysler has a one way flow valve in the cooler lines and they can also effect tc drain back.

We have modified our manual valve to help reduce this drainback problem but another suggestion to assist the trasmission is to warm your truck in neutral.

Next time you warm up your truck try warming up in neutral and time out say two minutes that should be adequate to charge the converter. Other things can also effect drain back like pump bushing, pumb body itself, input shaft, and definately cold weather.

You guys have to think of the tc this way,
it is similar to a balloon, it has atmospheric pressure or forces working against it. The oil inside the tc also has atmospheric pressure pushing oil out of the tc into the pan. While the drainback itself usually is not a problem unless you try driving without charging the tc, it is a bit of a nuisance. If the symptoms you are having fit the above description that is why it is happening , if its taking longer than 2 minutes, you may need to do further investigating.

Kevin,
thanks for the heads up, sometimes i miss a lot of these threads.
Hope this helps guys.

Bill
Diesel Transmission Technology.

 

[Runaway]

Thanks Bill, right there to answer questions as always. Those are the symtoms exactly, and I do warm in neutral. Thanks for the reply...

 

[K_Arts]

Thanks Bill, I knew that you would come to the rescue.

Kev

[This message has been edited by K_Arts (edited 12-11-2000). ]

 

[btltd-1]

just for a heads up. that's not normal, my modified trans, built by tony at dunrite ,with over 450 rwhp,does not have to sit and wait for even two seconds. i do not have to let it idle in neutral at all for the converter to fill. i also have lock up in all 4 gears and this is not done electronically . think of it this way ,there is a problem,if you can not start up and move right away. if it takes longer than two seconds ,do some investigating and call tony at dunrite ,with in 2 minutes he will solve your problems. he is the best when it comes to the trans work. john

 

[Koa Man]

I have a Dunrite converter also and even after one week of not using the truck, it moves right away after starting, certainly no more than 5 seconds from the time I started the truck to putting it in gear. Two minutes seems like a very long time to have to wait. I'm not saying Dunrite is the best converter, apparently it is not as efficient as some others, if you go by the amount of rpm drop between shifts, but I never had to wait for the converter to get charged with fluid. Having to wait even 30 seconds would not seem normal to me.

 

[goerend]

no more than 8 seconds to charge a converter
if it takes more than that you have a problem and don't let anyone tell you different

 

[Koa Man]

I would agree with goerend. Imagine yourself at a busy mall, everyone hunting for parking, you jump in your truck, start it up and have to wait two minutes before you can move? Get some mighty irritated people.

 

[Bill Kondolay]

Drainback is not something that has ever really concerned me. I certainly would not recommend a rebuild transmission or rebuild someones transmission becuase of it.

Chrysler actually puts a one way flow valve in the cooler line same as a lot of the other auto manufactures.

Depending on the circumstance i have sometimes removed the one way flow valve to allow better cooler flow which in itself can create converter drain back.

And if there was no drain back problem why did Chrysler put a one way flow valve in the cooler lines?
Now i'll be truthfull, i dont care if someone is waiting for my parking spot, or whether my truck goes into gear 5 seconds after turning the key, i care about my engine. Now dont get me wrong i dont profess to know a lot about Diesel engines but i choose to warm my engine up before putting my truck into gear. Just like i choose to plug in my truck at night just like Runaway may do as he lives in northern Wisconsin.

If you guys choose not not to warm up your engines thats your business.

What is a big deal to me and i would be concerned about if i were you guys is this.

Locking up a converter in every gear is an idiotic thing to do. Heaven help you if you ever had to make a panic stop.

Just like a standard transmission you slam on your brakes in a panic situation and dont push in your clutch you can stall your vehicle .

With an automatic forcing the tc clutch to stay locked up can also cause your vehicle to stall. So you better hope that if a kid runs in front of your truck YOU THINK TO UNLOCK YOUR TORQUE CONVERTER before you slam on your brakes.

Runaway if you have other symptoms give Piers a call, and i am sure he will deal with it.
Goerend,if it is your practice to sell re-build transmissions, coverters, and
valve bodies, for tc drainback, well all the power to you its not my way of doing business.

I guess we should all invest in a stop watch and if it takes 8 seconds or more well i guess we all know who to call .
And for those of you in cold climates dont be inconsiderate move that truck remember you got 8 seconds or less who nees to warm up the engine. (LOL)

Bill Kondolay
Diesel Transmission Technology

 

[MCrossley]

well, I have Bill's TC and VB, and I have maybe a 1 sec delay into gear if I just start and go, otherwise I don't have to wait.

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TAZ... 2001 2500 SLT+ 4X4 Auto ETC Cummins, LSD 3. 54,Quad Cab, Long Bed, Agate Leather, White/Driftwood Exterior, Sliding rear window, Camper Special Group, Towing Group, Cab clearance lights,SPA-Technique Digital Dual Gauges (Pyro/Boost, Trans pressure/temp) Aux. Backup lamps. BNM 5th Wheel Hitch, Additional Body Molding on Bed. Line-X bed-liner. DTT's TC & VB, Pac Brake, Power Edge, Edge EZ, Grover Air Horns

2000 32' Aljo Triple Slide 5th Wheel.

http://www.ramtaz.com

Add on's to come: any other Ram Runner required modifications...

 

[Mopar-muscle]

i have a DTT TC and VB , i don't usually wait , get in and go , when i put it in gear it lurches against the brakes . i also changed my cooler line to the one that blair at parker motors sells with the trans temp fitting . i removed the stock one way valve and installed the rubber hose that had it built in , no difference .

that front line is holding back TC fluid , when i removed the front line when swapping TC and VB, the convertor drain thru that port .

lock up in all gears , thats scary , if you had a more efficent TC then there would not be a need for lockup in 1 and 2 ecept maybe for braking heavy loads ????

 

[Tom W]

I too have Bill's TC and VB. Drainback does occur, but only after overnight. The delay is minimal. I start the engine and by the time I get my seatbelt fastened it's ready to go, not quite the usual firm shift into reverse but when I shift into forward after backing out of my garage it's the nice firm shift we expect from DTT. I know it's not cold here in Texas and my truck is garaged so maybe that makes a difference but as far as I amm concerned this is not a problem.

 

[goerend]

bill,
i don't know where you got your idea that i sell a trans just to fix a simple drain back problem.

it should not take long to fill a converter certainly not 2 minutes, if it takes that long there is a problem and if it bothers the guy why not fix the problem

we take all the check valves out so there is no chance that they will stick and have no cooler flow, i think you know what happens with no cooler flow. even with no check valves it should take no longer than 8 seconds to fill the converter.

why don't you explain to my simple mind why it takes so long to fill a converter.

chrysler puts the check valve in so it will go into gear within 3 seconds, 8 seconds is a long time, almost 3 times the norm, but 1 to 2 minutes?? give me a break.

i sure hope we don't have to get into it again, i would just as soon not post at all than have to argue. maybe the other members would just as soon i did not post either, that way? that way there would be no arguements

 

[Koa Man]

Good to hear that apparently DTT's TC does not normally take more than a few seconds to charge. I can think of two instances where I had to move my truck immediately. Once to move out of a driveway where we were working to allow an ambulance in to assist a heart attack victim. The other was to move out of a lane to allow a fire truck to get to a house fire. In both cases I don't think they would have appreciated having to wait 2 min. for my TC to charge. I like Bill's stuff, but I also agree with goerend that if you have to wait more than 8 sec. you got a problem... . a serious one that could even be considered life threatening IMO.

 

[Koa Man]

Bill,
Hope I didn't offend you with my post. I know from the different posts from guys who have your TC and VB that you must make a great product, one that I would like to try out. I have always felt that once oil pressure is up, the best way to warm up the engine is just to start driving slow. This procedure is also recommended by many automotive experts. I also live in a place that NEVER gets below 60 degrees, usually 70-85. What I would not find acceptable is having to wait up to 2 min. before my truck can start to even move. My question is, if you installed a one way valve, would you still have to charge your TC? Is the one way valve so harmful that you would not recommend it? As good as anybody's TC is, if I had to wait more than 15 sec. to charge it, that fact alone would stop me from buying it. I do agree with you about TC lockup.

 

[Bill Kondolay]

Goerend,
this is a public forum, whether you choose to post or not is of no concequence to me, it is strictly up to you. However i am not about to sit back and listen to scare tactics transmission shops are so famous for. There are a lot of good shops out there working to change the consumer attitude on the perception of transmission shops.

When you remove a one way flow valve, you are going to cause a converter drainback. Remember converter drainback is just a term used to explain that when a vehicle has been sitting for a time some of the oil drains out of the tc into the pan. This term does not in itself mean that the tc has a problem.

Just because a vehicle moves right away when you put it into gear does not mean the converter is fully charged and to imply that it is rediculous.

In colder weather the valve body allows a converter drainback situation to occur moreso than in warmer weather. Goerend heres an old trick some shops including myself use, if you have a vb with stuck valves, place it in the freezer for a while.
When you take the vb out of the freezer the valve will simply fall out.
What this means is that the vb is effected by temperature. The tc oil can drain through the vb in the pan when cold.

On the average pump assembly on a Chrysler transmission it can pump up to 1 quart every 15-20 seconds. Removing the one way flow valve can drain up to 2 quarts out of the system overnight. Cold weather can cause more oil to drain back.
So i repeat just because your vehicle goes into gear does not mean the tc is fully charged.
If someone wanted to more accurately check it because they were worried about it, use the dipstick to check how long it takes to fully charge the tc. If someone is concerned and wants to check it that way they can call me. It's easier to explain on the phone.

Goerend there is a thread under 12 valve posted by i believe JT, under Transmission problems. Look at his symptoms and look at the temperature where he lives. Take a look at runaway post again and look at where he lives, you will begin to see lots of these questions at this time of the year as the cold temperatures directly affect tc drainback.

Bill
Diesel Transmission Technology.

KOA MAN , trust me i am not easily affended, i suggest you re-read runaway's original post. His truck is sitting overnight in cold temperatures and it directly affects tc drainback.
He says his truck is fine the rest of the day. His described symptoms is what i based my opinion on. If he was asking this question from Hawaii i would look at his location and my opinion would change.
Bill
Diesel Transmission Technology


[This message has been edited by Bill Kondolay (edited 12-15-2000). ]

 

[goerend]

started everything on the lot this am that had a working trans.
all engaged and could be driven by the 8 second count with a stop watch
it was 25 degrees out.
will continue to check through the winter but i expect no problems because for the last 22 years we have had no problems with engagement at temps down to 30 below 0 and if it did take longer than that we warrantied the trans if it was ours and fixed the problem, or if they decided they could wait and did not want to spend the money so be it.
if you pull the valve body and air test the front and rear clutch you will probably find a major leak that goes away when the aluminum piston expands with some heat,
and works fine the rest of the day. the aluminum piston expands a little more than the cast drum and make the seals fit tighter. ford c-6 transmissions have had this problem since 1966. takes 5 minutes to go into drive but reverse is ok from the start. there is no question that you are NOT hurting anything because the clutch is not applied. but if someone does not like it fix it! if that is all that is wrong it should not cost more than $100. 00 once the trans is out.
the same thing that causes no 2-3 upshift cold. stick a gauge on it and prove it, if you got pressure and you are not moving you got a leak or something broke. if its a leak it will get better with heat as i decribed above, if it was a cracked piston or worn pump it would get worse with heat because of the thinning of the fluid and you would loose your prime when hot.

for you guys that have front wheel drive chryslers overdrives with the 606 trans this is also very common, the seals on the reverse input and the low clutch get hard and brittle and will not seal cold. the car will not move for 1/2 to 1. 5 minutes then works great the rest of the day.
if your better half does not like to wait you may have to fix it. chrysler has new style "d" seals to replace the lip seals to cure the problem.
this problem is not unique to a dodge diesel, it is a problem with several automatic transmissions some of which are behind gas engines that were designed to be warmed for 30 seconds then driven.
i am not saying you should drive off as soon as the engine is started but if the trans is not ready by the time the engine runs smooth and you move the selector something is wrong and there are places that can fix it. CHEAP!
dave goerend
goerend bros transmission

 

[Runaway]

Wow, didn't mean to get everyone riled up here. Just asking a question if anyone else had these symtoms in the colder climates. I noticed that everyone that responded came from the warmer climates.

Naw, I have never plugged the truck in, just want to get it backed out before it smokes up the garage. Eternity is anywhere from 10 seconds up to a minute.

I try to avoid malls or any other place that has mass quantities of people milling about, especially this time of year, and I'm bullheaded enough not to care if someone is waiting for my parking spot. #ad


My question is answered, thanks for the responses

Happy Holidays all