Anothre EGR problem 1500 miles after turbo replacement

[DMosby]

Truck is a 2008 RAM 2500 with 6. 7 L diesel, auto trans.



At 3524 miles it threw a P2662 code. The result was that the turbo was replaced. Full thread on this group here.



So now at 5294 miles (only 1770 miles later) I get a P0402 code which I decipher as "EGR: excessive flow detected". Meaning more EGR problems.



I was really hoping for a couple hundred thousand trouble free miles out of this engine. Not a visit to the dealer ever two or three thousand miles for turbo cleaning.



Since the last visit I have tried to use the truck as much as possible for trips, have been using the exhaust brake, and minimizing idle time - a bit of turbo cool down if coming off the highway, but not excessive idle. I'll make another dealer visit and see what's next. So far I'm not a big fan of this ERG system.

 

[Austin Diesel]

have all they desooted egr system sensors prerequisate for turbo replacement



applied exhaust wrap cleaned sensors updated ecm to "AS" software etc?



I have the same truck all is well for now



Austin Diesel

 

[jelag]

We have an 08 5500 that is 18 months old now with close to 70K miles, maybe more... .

We drive it at gross GVW and drive like we stole it... . its been perfect... .

I really believe that the harder and faster you drive these trucks the better the emission system likes it... . as the hot, fast flow of exhaust gases keep the DPF and other items burnt clean... .

We've never noticed a re-gen event... .

 

[DMosby]

Yes, the work order in this thread indicates that they did indeed clean the sensors when the turbo was replaced.

I just got a call from the dealer. (Note: this is a different dealer from turbo replacement as the place where I purchased truck and had it serviced - in their just opened brand new service center - was evidently one of the dealers that got closed. )

I will post the work order when I pick up the truck but phone call told me:
1) They are replacing an EGR valve.
2) The truck has tried 40 regens with no successful.

The truck had just been driven from the Oregon coast to Portland Oregon, about 77 miles. Prior to that it made the trip there, then about 4 15 mile trips while on the coast. Dealer says that he can do a manual regen for $200 which I find completely unacceptable and that the drive from the coast probably has too many curves and slow spots to keep engine speed up for a long enough time.

Other thing he said is that because I have a ScanGauge II installed in the OBD2 port this might be interfering with the truck data stream and preventing a regen cycle. That seems a bit unlikely but I'll disconnect it and make a trip on the highway and see what happens.

When I get the car back I'll post the work order text.

 

[DMosby]

I got the truck back. Here is work order:

Installed 68005465AA : GASKET:

Installed 6802699AB :VALVE: EGR

P0402 EGR FLOW EXCESSIVE. FOUND EGR VALVE TO BE STUCK

OPEN DUE TO SOOT BUILD UP. REPLACED EGR VALVE.

VEHICLE SOFTWARE IS UP TO DATE. RAN VEHICLE. CUSTOMER

NEEDS TO DRIVE VEHICLE HARDER WITH JAKE BRAKE ON

This is 1700 miles after turbo replacement. I have been using the exhaust brake since then. Service advisor told me that car was not being driven hard enough to complete a regen cycle. Also told me that the drive from coast to Portland was not working truck hard enough and that idle should be avoided unless you are driving the truck hard - to start driving as soon as you have oil pressure and around town shut it off immediately. Unfortunately I have to drive about an hour and a half to get out to I-5 to give it a good run.



I am told that the EGR replacement was due to soot built up and yet the overhead has not alerted me to the 80% full DPF with the "chime". And no way for a user to know how many unsuccessful regen attempts though it seems that if I spend $300 on the Edge Insight I would know.



The truck may be great for towing a heavy load on the freeway but if you live a fair distance from a freeway this emissions system seems to be a very poor design.

 

[tempforce]

i've had two transent egr codes. one after towing from oregon to arizona. the other was from l. a. ,ca. to quartzite,az. both cleared on thier own after 5 cycles of use.

i have a high turbo voltage code right now, and the truck runs great unless it;s over 105'f, then it jumps boost presure about halfway through the rpm range in first gear. ie: a doubling of power. and only in first gear. i',\m thinking i need to take it in and have them check it when the truck needs it's oil changed again. in about 1500 miles. i change it every 5000 miles.

any one want to recomend a dealer in the austin, tx area.

 

[HBarlow]

DMosby,

How about posting your odometer miles and engine run hours data as explained in another thread.

Tempforce,

My advice would be to drive a little farther, take your truck to Elder Dodge in Athens, TX where TDR member Mike Mullenax is the lead diesel tech.

 

[jelag]

I've got a thought here... in the text of the w/o the service writer talks about the exhaust brake and using it more... . (jake brake) in fact the truck has a variable turbo that functions the same as an exhaust brake... . could it be that the service writer/tech really doesn't know the difference and the function of each... and might be speaking out of turn...

Also driving the vehicle harder with the exhaust brake enabled will have no effect as long as your foot is on the throttle... it requires full release of the throttle for this to work... also remember that with the exhaust brake on. . there is limited flow of exhaust gases going to the muffler and other down stream components... I can only assume they have the truck programmed to limit re-gen when the exhaust brake is on... .

Does this make sense to you the same way???

 

[DMosby]

The miles are now 5433 and engine hours are 194 so miles/hrs = 28. 1



After picking up the car yesterday I took it out on a freeway and drove Portland to Salem and back. Total of 99 miles and discounting local driving figure at least 80 miles of over 55 MPH other than off ramp when I reversed and came back. Typical speed 70+ MPH.



I saw no indication of a regen on the overhead display. I called the dealer today and he tells me that if there was no regen message on the display then it did not do a regen. He spoke with a technician who said that "a regen will only occur when needed, and when the overhead shows 80% full - because it did not regen on this drive the car does not think that a regen is needed".



I asked the service advisor for more information on the report of "40 regen attempts and no successes" - specifically does this mean for the life of the car, some recording time period, or something else. He did not have any other information.



So at this point the service advisor is saying:

• The ERG valve was replaced due to soot (but the new one is an improved design).
  
• My driving style is letting too much soot build up and that killed the old EGR.
  
• My driving style is not allowing a successful regen.
  
• He will have his technician force a regen for a fee of $200.
  

I am quite unhapy with his as I have never had any overhead message telling me that a regen has been needed and there is no indication to the operator that soot is building up to the point of component failure before a failure occurs.



In 5000 miles I have now had two shop visits, one for complete turbo replacement and the second for EGR replacement. Supposedly "improved components" have been installed. We shall see, pardon me for being skeptical. My normal driving has me going across the coast range - about an hour each way at around 60 MPH, but hilly and the service advisor is indicating that the downhills could prevent regen. Unfortunately for much of the year getting out on the freeway could be a challenge - I'm going to have to drive an hour and a half to do this. If it is needed then I feel that the car needs to give me some indication of this when it is.



I have been told to drive with exhaust brake on all the time, as soon as oil pressure comes up drive (no warm up), and around town shut it off when you stop, no idle. Is that kill the turbo with no cool down but save the emissions system?



Is there a technician on the list that give a correct meaning of "40 regen attempts and no successes" as read by a dealer scan tool?

• Does this mean that in the 5000 mile life of the car there has NEVER been one successful regen?
  
• Does it take a COMPLETE regen to register success so perhaps an attempt that gets 80 % done would really reduce the DPF load and yet no be recorded as success?
  

 

[jelag]

DMosby

We've never seen our 08 5500 show a re-gen in the overhead display... I would think in over 70K miles one of us driving the thing would see it... . also we've never felt a re-gen... again doesn't mean its not happening we just don't know it... .

I personally wonder about the ability of the service writer and tech to understand and fix your truck...

Wish I could be of more help...

 

[Bob4x4]

There are many dtc's that will inhibit a regen. So do not drive around and expect things to be good if the CEL comes on than back off again. Take it in and get get it fixed.

 

[HBarlow]

I am NOT a Dodge or Cummins tech but have owned an '08 Ram C&C for almost 55,000 troublefree miles.

The only time you will ever see a message on the overhead monitor regarding regen is if the DPF becomes full or almost full with soot. Normal driving and normal regen efforts will not be visible to the owner. NO indications are provided for the owner/driver.

I don't think the regen cycle info contained in your ECM is accurate or usable for the owner. It was probably reset during your previous dealer service visit. Your truck is attempting and probably completing regens at least part of the time.

Dodge and Cummins engineers apparently have the philosoply that a little knowledge in the hands of us owners is dangerous. The ONLY way to know when your engine is conducting a regeneration is to have gauges that monitor exhaust gas temperature. If you have gauges you will quickly recognize the symptoms of a regen but only if it occurs at idle. If driving the only symptom you'll ever see is increased EGT. If at idle or driving slowly in town you'll recognize the rumbling exhaust note and an increased response to throttle input when accelerating off idle. Without correlation by the pyro gauge you might notice the symptoms I described but wouldn't give any credence to them.

Based on your average road speed reported above I will offer the opinion (it's worth what you're paying for it) that your drive cycle is not compatible with the federal government's mandated emission control crap on your truck. The Cummins engine is a truck engine, designed to carry or tow heavy loads. The new ISB6. 7 is sensitive to drive cycle due to the EPA burden of reduced emissions. If you drive the truck like a "car" as you describe it, you will experience problems. I'm sorry that is the case, I wouldn't like it anymore than you do, but it seems to be a fact with light duty trucks.

Your dealer's service department is not sufficiently knowledgeable or adequately trained to help you. I would ignore what they are telling you. The word "clueless" comes to mind.

Your truck is in warranty for 100k miles and five calendar years. You should not pay for a forced regeneration! It can be done by simply plugging in the scan tool and directing a manual override regen but it does require a test drive by the dealer tech which demands his time. That may be a tough issue to resolve.

 

[SPucillo]

DMosby
Don't worry about shutting down with a hot turbo. The older turbos used oil to cool and lubricate. When they were shutdown hot, the heat would conduct from the exhaust housing in to the bearings and boil the engine oil causing carbon deposits that would destroy the bearings.
Your turbo has a water jacket surrounding the oil galley in the turbo center section. The water will absorb the heat and prevent the oil from boiling.
Unless you came to a quick stop from a world record pull, just shut it off. No worries.

A hour and a half to get to the freeway! That sucks. The load on the engine at 75mph really helps the regen cycle.

I hate to say it, and it will hurt, tough love and all, but you should look in to getting a hemi. No dpf problems there.

I might remind you that a few more trips to the dealer and you may be able to evoke the lemon law and get your money back.

 

[DMosby]

The problem with trying to get my money back after repeated trips to the dealer is that I have already invested in a very expensive ARB front bumper, a Warn winch, and a Fab Fours back bumper, also a bed slide and canopy. So even if Dodge and I agreed that this design was unsuitable for my needs and I received the full purchase price I would be out several thousand dollars. And I am (was?) about to install quite a bit of amateur radio equipment in the truck. And that project doesn't just add some money it adds a LOT of time. I hoped to amortize the time and money investment in add-ons over a couple hundred thousand miles and many years. Now I'm not so sure. I love everything about the truck except for the emissions system. I really want to stay with diesel and hope it can be this one.



I absolutely don't need any more power and I hate to void the warranty but this current EGR/DPF system just does not seem to be suited to those of us that don't haul big loads or get out on the freeway often. (And I wonder what around town driving is really doing? I see how getting out on the freeway might clean the DPF, but I don't know that it gets rid of soot build up from taking the kids to soccer practice. )



I don't consider the overall truck a "lemon" but I do not believe that this EGR/DPF system used on the 2008 6. 7L diesel should be sold to the general public without a clear pre-sale statement that this truck requires frequent long highway trips. I also feel they need far better instrumentation to tell you the condition of the DPF and the amount of soot being generated. Two failures such as mine in 5K miles are unacceptable if these really are on-going problems. The truck gave no indication of a problem prior to these check engine lights and subsequent parts replacements.



I am an engineer and able to understand fairly technical information. Most of my frustration comes from this design which seems to prevent extended low speed use. But I'm also frustrated by lack of clear information as to exactly what a statement such as "'40 regen attempts and zero success" means. Service advisor could not tell me if this was life of truck or some other interval, he would not read the data again after my freeway drive, and could not tell me why I did not see a regen displayed in the console given the large number of attempts.



What I would really like is for Dodge to scrap the current emissions system and retrofit the car with something like a urea based system. Meanwhile I hope development on code free DPF/EGR delete kits continues. I hate to go that route, preferring to stay stock and keep my warranty.

 

[HBarlow]

Adding to the above... I just returned from a trip over to Athens in East Texas to visit TDR member Mike Mullenax who is the lead diesel tech at Elder Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep. I drove 400 miles pulling my fiver to see Mike because his informative posts here convinced me he knew what he is talking about and could be relied upon to perform the latest reflash on my truck. I figured I could also learn from Mike.

Having been there and met him and the dealership owner, I'm convinced I was correct.

Mike took me back into the shop and allowed me to watch as he read out all the data in my ECM and performed the software update. He explained all that he was doing.

My truck had never been back to a dealer for any repairs or upgrades so the ECM was a virgin. When Mike read out the ECM data the miles and numbers of completed/attempted Regens made no sense. It may mean something to Cummins engineers but made no sense to me. We could see no direct correlation between the odometer miles, engine hours, and regen cycles.

It has been reported here in other threads that the regens actually occur on a regular operating time cycle with surprisingly short intervals between regen cycles.

No harm will come from having your exhaust brake function enabled 100% of he time. C&C trucks are programmed so that the exhaust brake function, once turned on, is always on. It stays enabled after every shutdown. Mine is enabled 100% of the time. Use of full throttle causing the VGT to cycle between full boost (full power) and full deceleraton/no fuel (foot off the pedal) exercises the turbo and is, I believe, good for preventing/eliminating soot accumulation.

As SPucillo wrote above, the ISB6. 7 has a watercooled turbo that reduces the likelihood of turbo damage when shutting down hot but the owner's manual does still call for cool down times. Some owners, including TDR founder and editor Robert Patton, have reported he drives his own personal 6. 7 Ram like a gasoline engine never allowing cooldown time before shutdown. He has reported no problems from this. I wouldn't worry about cooldown unless you are running hard through the mountains pulling a heavy trailer immediately before shutdown.

You didn't mention whether your dealer has performed a software reflash on your truck. Simply replacing the EGR w/o a reflash or change in operation will do little to prevent a further soot failure.

Idle time is nowhere near as critical as your dealer service department told you. My truck showed a significant amount of idle time (but low percentage) when it was reflashed a couple of days ago. I always bump idle speed up to around 900* if I'm going to get out of the truck and allow it to idle for a few minutes. The new software using "net zero" and "net reduction" is supposed to reduce soot buildup at idle and increase the engine's tolerance for long idle periods. Idle time is not your problem, I believe slow speed stop and go driving is.

 

[Austin Diesel]

wow this is so true and now if you look at your engine oil levels you will see that it so overful and diluted with fuel that your oil samples will show viscosity loss which dodge/cummins will say is within normal parameters and change your oil more frequently every 3 ,000 miles.



My dealer is a good guy and has done many procedures and just taken care of it . some service centers wear black masks some do not .



mullinax is pretty sharp send him a private message on all this .



i just wanted a truck to drive and didnt know i had to become a self educated diesel tech to drive this truck they didnt deduct this from my purchase price either just got a big payment book



Austin Diesel

 

[tempforce]

i used to live in powers, south east of coos bay. i drove on hwy 42 to coos bay on to hwy 38 to eugene or to used 42 to roseburg. this is over the coast range. speeds range from 35 to 60. the only way i know when the truck is doing a regen is when the cat converter inlet temp goes over 1000'f, sometimes it's as high as 1250'f. this is read on my dashawk.
i use the engine brake until i get to i-5, i also use it, if i'm on a long hill, like rice hill or the syskiyou passes.
cc

 

[MullenaxM]

DMosby you need to go here:



https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/6-7l-engine-transmissions-2007-5/213869-regeneration.html



This might explain a few things but as always there is more. As I have stated in other posts and Harvey eluded to the regeneration counter in the "STARSCAN,Starmobile,and WiTech are incorrect. When the regeneration counter in the ECM gets to 24000 or the soot load in the DPF gets to 47 grams of soot the ECM will try to go into a regeneration mode. As stated above you will not notice this unless you have EGT gages installed or you have a way to monitor the exhaust gas temperature. Regeneration can occur at speed as low as 30 miles an hour, It just takes longer to complete. If you shut the vehicle down during a regeneration event, as soon as you restart the vehicle it will try to go into regeneration mode again until the regeneration event is complete.



Mike

 

[firemansdiesel]

Why doesn't Dodge/Chrysler come out w/ a software flash that tells/alert the driver when the truck goes into active regen? The short lived time I owned an '08 Ford 6. 4 PSD. The one good thing they did was have a display pop up on the odometer screen saying " Cleaning The Exhaust" and disappeared when it was done.



It helped out alot and after awhile you can pretty much predict when it was going into active regen. Mix driving every 300 miles -/+ and long freeway driving was 400 miles -/+... .



I know we have the "80% Full Message", but seems like what I've read around. It's too late when that message pops up majority of the time before the "See The Dealer" appears.



My personal opinion that would help someone out finishing a regen w/ a display rather than not never really knowing unless installing some type of EGT guage or what not.

 

[HBarlow]

The lack of a factory indicator to tell the driver when the engine is trying to perform a regeneration makes it even more important to install at least a pyro gauge to monitor EGTs.

I removed the three gauge set of DiPricol gauges I had in my previous '06 Ram when I sold it and put them in the new truck but if I had not done that I would buy and install a set immediately now that I realize that is the only way to know when the ECM is calling for a regen. If at all possible, I continue driving even if I wanted to stop when I notice a regen in progress. I try not to interrupt the regen if I can avoid it.