Anyone thought of oxygen injection?

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That would definitely be considered "BOMBING".

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YOU GUYS AREN'T LISTENING! Wer're talking about injecting O2 into a casting that has 11 quarts of oil in it--OK?? Although pressures would play a part in the severity of the explosion, it's not even important at this level. 1st post said "welding oxygen", which is darn near pure. I wish you would quit talking among yourselves, and ask someone "in the know" about your questions. I don't wish to "flame" anyone, just don't like funerals. If it was such a good gig to use 02 to enhance HP, why don't you see it in pro-stock, top fuel etc??? Come on, get some information and become informed. Talk to a welding supply shop, welding instructor, Refrigeration instructor, (as I once was), or any chemist. PLEASE--research this BEFORE you blow your ass off. If any of you have a big fat life policy, e-mail me and I will be more than happy to give you my "vitals" for a beneficiary payment. I'll take small or large bills! Ron

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I am impressed with all the responces to this, in my opinion N20 is just what that means 2 parts Nitrogen(I think I'd have to look at my Bottles) and one part Oxygen, the nytrogen is enert, means it doesn't burn, the oxygen is just that, It does not burn without a fuel, the benifiet of N2o is that its real cold, this by itself will slow the burn a little because of the nitrogen, the oxygen helps the burn because it is air, pure air if you will, I am in no way an expert at this but I to have been using n2o for years ...

In preface, my intent here is not to offend anyone.
Just trying to pass on what I know (or somewhat remember). If I'm wrong, *do* correct me! I may well be mis-remembering some of the terms... .

Chemically, N2O is di-nitrogen oxide, a compound. It isn't 2/3 N2 and 1/6 O2 (yes, oxygen in it's natural free state is O2). So your tank of N2O is a tank full of a single compound.

Warning: the following is what I *think* happens. I'm relying on what I learned of chemistry (basic and organic) some 25 years ago)!

I don't know how N2O works to increase power. But I would suspect that the molecular bond between the nitrogen and oxygen is weak, and under heat and compression, the bonds are likely to split, yielding single nitrogen atoms and single oxygen atoms. The single oxygen atoms are, basically, desperate to bond with anything, and hydrogen and carbon are the best candidates, thus fuel burns better. (Actually, the single oxygen atoms are ions, as they are short one or two electrons; this is why the natural state for oxygen is O2. )

However, the single nitrogen atoms also want to bond with something, either other nitrogens or free oxygen. Depending on the combustion temperature, two nitrogens will bond with a single oxygen, generating N2O (nitrous oxide). Perhaps one will bond, generating NO (nitric oxide), which is actually an ion, wanting to bond with *something*. To test this, you could install a nitrous system on your vehicle and wander down to your near-by emissions test station and ask them to measure the emission whilst you pump N2O into the intake.

Generally, N2O is a kind of catalyst, enhancing the expected chemical reaction. But it isn't perfect, because it breaks down and doesn't properly reform. A proper catalyst (such as is found in catalytic converters) lends itself to the reaction without permanently breaking down. I think they lend or borrow an electron or two, temporarily bonding with a piece of the decomposing compound (which, in the case of diesel exhaust gasses, is NOx). N2O is used to enhance performance because it is cheap. N2O breaks down to allow the oxygen molecule to bond with a piece of the decomposing hydrocarbon fuel.

As to using O2 in an engine, O2 is very corrosive; it causes darn near everything to 'burn'. Rust is 'burned' iron. Aluminum 'rusts', or oxidates. So does rubber. It's how cutting torches work. Heat the material to be cut hot enough, then pass O2 across it; the material *will* rapidly oxidize (or burn), if that material 'likes' to bond with oxygen.

If one can properly contain the O2, ensure that the on/off valve properly seals, ensure that the hoses and fittings routing it to the destination (the intake manifold) are well sealed, ensure that no O2 sources, piping or mechanical controls are located in a closed space, one *could* inject a small-ish amount into the intake to enhance combustion. But one would be doing this at her (or her, to be fair) own risk. And there's no guarantee that the inside of the intake manifold and ports won't severely rust. You *really* don't want iron oxide particles running through your cylinder and turbo; you think silicates cause metal wear? Run some rust through!

And, finally, nitrogen is not inert. Helium, neon, argon, krypton, xenon and radon are the inert gases
(found at the right edge of the periodic table); they don't really like to bond with anything, as they have about the best balance of electrons, protons and neutrons. All oher elements generally prefer to bond with *something*.

Now I'll step down and let the retired chemistry professors correct me. Hopefully they will give you time to take some aspirin to relieve the headaches you now have. #ad


Fest3er

 

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Originally posted by frijole:
YOU GUYS AREN'T LISTENING! Wer're talking about injecting O2 into a casting that has 11 quarts of oil in it--OK?? Although pressures would play a part in the severity of the explosion, it's not even important at this level. 1st post said "welding oxygen",
<snip>
Okay if you trickled pure O2 at the intake I would bet you could never get a 30%O2 going into the cylinder. To make you happy lets say You Put Nitrox39 which would be 39%O2 and 61%N2 on a nozzle at your air intake. Now measley old 39% O2 shouldnt scare you should it. At 39% people would use rubber o-rings and petroleum
lubricants. From now on I am talking about 39%O2 and hopefully that will quell nuclear bomb soothsayers. After years of Cave Diving and breathin O2 as a deco gas at 20ft I decided I wanted to be an open water SCUBA
Instructor. I will never forget when that training class guy told me "oh O2 will kill you under water Yeah itll make your lungs catch on fire!!! I just shook my head and walked off. Get real man. I bet when people first thought of putting N2O in cars there were soothsayers saying "Man that cars going to blow up and" , "Man that laughing gas is going to make that car act crazy" I beleive you concerns are valid but you dont come back with" to make it saferI would??" I just dont buy" You cant get there from here. It may just not be economically feasable but as time permits I'll tinker with it.

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2001 ETH/DEE ST 4X4 SPACE SHUTTLE

 

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Fest3er
That was a good post. Yes oxidation could be a problem.
I think you would be better not going with pure O2 at the intake Maybe 39% as I posted earlier. Steel is much more susceptible to oxidation than Al. I have stored pure O2 in steel and Aluminum cylinders and once the Aluminum oxide form inside the Al tanks it stops the process but I typically have to tumble the steel tanks to get the rust out.

Mad-Scientist
PS anybody know haw to change your username??????????

 

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Here's the way I understand that engines and nitrous work as it was explained to me many many years ago. I'll stay out of the O2 debate as I don't know anything about that but this might help. An internal combustion engine can basically be thought of as an air pump. The more molecules of air moved through that engine the more power it's making. Air goes into the cylinder at ambient pressure or in the case of turbo-charged or supercharged engines at some level of boost beyond ambient. The piston then compresses that air to an even higher pressure (read denser) then there is combustion (either via compression on a diesel or ignition on a gasser). The air is therefore heated which causes it to expand (read less dense). It is this expansion of air that causes the work - not an explosion in the cylinders. The combustion is there to supply heat to expand the air. The denser the air is that is going into the engine, and the higher the compression ratio of the piston/cylinder, the more molecules of air that are in the engine to then expand forcing the piston downward. Now to the nitrous part - the primary thing that nitrous does is that it cools the air before it goes into the cylinder. This cooling (because of the nitrous going from high pressure to low pressure) makes the air denser (read more molecules) therefore once that air is heated it will expand more. There are two ways to increase the density of the air going into an engine, one is via higher pressures (super or turbo charging) the other is colder air (nitrous oxide, intercoolers, fresh air intakes, etc). As long as there is enough oxygen available to fully burn the fuel (creating the heat) then you are all set. This is where boost (and possibly oxygen? Can't say myself) would come into play, if you were stuffing so much fuel into the cylinders that all of the fuel isn't burning because of lack of oxygen (like when it's blowing smoke - usually before boost has built) then you would have a more complete burn hence more heat and more volume created during that cycle. The path to producing more power out of an engine is not to create a more violent explosion in the cylinders but to put the air into the cylinder as densely as possible (boost & cooling the air) and to completely burn whatever fuel is introduced into the cylinder (having adequate amounts of oxygen in there so it can burn). Hopefully that made sense - I'm not an engineer and have a hard time explaining technical things sometimes. Later!

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JP said:

I am not talking about running pure o2 although that would be the ultimate I am talking about elevated percentages of O2. Yes you would get more heat THATS THE POINT!!!

O2 by itself is unstable. it can and will react with anything but a solid, and some solids will react as well. The reason N20 is used is because it stabilizes the O2. If anyone out there is thinking about messing around with pure oxygen, let us know and use a video camera, I want to be able to use you as a training video of what NOT to do.

As to adding oxygen: Some people new to diesels do not realize that a diesel regualtes fuel input alone to change engine speed. The engine is already getting all the air it needs, no point in adding more air UNLESS you can add fuel to it.

Stay safe out there people.

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Y2K 2500 QC Sport 4x4 LWB
72 Dart 340
89 LeBaron GTC 2. 2 TI

 

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Max, I was just about to say the same thing about a diesel being a lean-burn engine, but I have seen blue/white smoke from them before. That means unburned hydrocarbons. If you increase the fueling beyond the factory setting, it is easy to overfuel the engine.

It is true that N2O breaks down and allows more oxygen to be available to combust fuel, but that effect is minimal. As was said before, the most beneficial effect is charge cooling. That's what the old Holley double pumpers used to do. They would overfuel to get more charge cooling.

If you are injecting O2 into your engine, it will deffinately cause the oil on your cylinder walls to burn before you even get any fuel in there. That will cause more wear and increase oil comsumption and contamination. Wether it will cause any violent explosion or not, I don't know, but I don't think it is worth the risk, when N2O works pretty well. Y'all scare me.

 

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Has anyone run the numbers to see how much welding oxy it would to change the ratio? These engines breath a whole lotta air. You probably couldn't carry enough.

 

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Originally posted by LarryB:
Has anyone run the numbers to see how much welding oxy it would to change the ratio? These engines breath a whole lotta air. You probably couldn't carry enough.

I think a regular welding cylinder is about 300 cubic ft O2 plus its pretty heavy. How would you get the amount of air volume the cummins breathes at idle. If you had the rate at idle and you had the boost at idle. You could calculate what it would be for any RPM&Boost combination. If o2 flow was constant you would get a higher percentage of O2 in the cylinders at low RPMs which might be the most bennificial place anyway because your egts and boost are not up yet. Maybe you could turn that puff of smoke into some torque!!!!! I mean besides the fact that you would be blown to bits. Oh well no pain no gain!!!!!!

Mad-Scientist


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2001 ETH/DEE ST 4X4 SPACE SHUTTLE

 

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LarryB>
I got it; Okay our engine is 5. 9liters correct So one revolution would pull in 5. 9 liters in a normally aspirated engine. So 1000 would be 5900 and 2500 revolutions would be14750 liter : 1 liter = . 0353 cubic ft so 14750X. 0353= 520 cubic ft of air for 2500 revolutions But lets add the boost. Lets say I have 20 psi boost that is gauge reading I add the pressure of 1 atm=14psi and now I have 34/14 = 2. 4 atmospheres absolute so the amount of air is essentially 2. 4 of the original amount. At these pressures we will treat air as an ideal gas. Bringing me to a grand total of 1262 cu ft/Min/@ 2500 rpm and 20psi boost. I choose 2500 RPM because I figure that is a good number for the average for a quarter mile. I mean you would need a computer to calculate it without just picking an average. Lets say the 1/4 mile takes 20 seconds. I ran an 18. 3 1/4 mile in a bone stock 7100# 2001 ETH/DEE first time up. That drops our total air consumption for the 1/4 mile to 1262/3= 420 cubic feet for 20 seconds of average 2500 rpm and 20 psi boost. now lets say we added O2!!! HELL YEAH! Lets say I add 80 cubic ft of satans gas; beautiful O2. That would give me an average mixture 36% & 64% nitrogen THATS NITROX 36 that you can buy in any dive shop. NOAA gudelines dont requre any special handling for mixes less than 40% O2 no special o-rings no special oiless lubricants. If NOAA says its safe I'm with them. Bet you wouldnt see any unburnt diesel smoke- wasted energy burning that. To seal the deal lets say you never used pure O2; You had a sealed intake and you supplied Nitrox 36 for the whole run????????????
COME ON WIT IT

Mad-Scientist


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2001 ETH/DEE ST 4X4 SPACE SHUTTLE

 

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There is an explosion in the cylinders that causes the gases (air) to expand. The reason diesels have more torque than gassers is that diesel fuel burns slower therefore pushing the piston further down before the explosion is over. Steam will give you more torque as it pushes the piston all the way to the bottom. O2 will cause a more violent (faster) explosion and will cause more heat, that is why a torch flame is hot enough (5200 degrees) to cut steel, melting point 2200 degrees. Heat = horsepower, but the question is, what is the limit before parts start flying.

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Originally posted by Lou:
There is an explosion in the cylinders that causes the gases (air) to expand. The reason diesels have more torque than gassers is that diesel fuel burns slower therefore pushing the piston further down before the explosion is over. Steam will give you more torque as it pushes the piston all the way to the bottom. O2 will cause a more violent (faster) explosion and will cause more heat, that is why a torch flame is hot enough (5200 degrees) to cut steel, melting point 2200 degrees. Heat = horsepower, but the question is, what is the limit before parts start flying.

Exactly; someone said that oxygen would burn the oil off the sides of the cylinder but at what percent or better yet patial pressure would this happen?!?!?!?!!?!!? Another good point about steam; probably not what you are talking about but I was thinking when you use nitrous in a high humidity enviroment you probably form water vapor now water vapor is different from steam in that it takes up much less space because you have actual droplets formed if these droplets make it to the cylinder and go from liquid to vapor you would have dramatic increase in pressure BUT you would have the absorption of heat- heat of fusion- I wonder if that plays any past of N20- DONT ANSWER THAT. this discussion is about O2. I cant take it anymore. I am about to start bombing from the "other" side.

Mad_Scientist



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2001 ETH/DEE ST 4X4 SPACE SHUTTLE

 

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I don't know the flame color inside our combustion chamber, but i do know that a yellow, sooty acetylene flame cuts nothing, while a properly oxy-mixed flame will preheat nearly anything, and will zip thru thin pieces without the O2 jet being opened... I think a "blue" flame on that piston crown would be bad, but i don't know how quick. ---as for nitrous, I read some time back about it having 3 effects... most important is as a manifold refrigerant,cooling the air charge and allowing a heftier air-gulp on the intake stroke---next, it decomposes like this: 2 N2O-->2 N2 + 1 O2 under sufficient heat---the O2 goes to a carbon or hydrogen burn, and the N2 just gets hot and adds pressure to the expansion(suddenly you have 3 molecules of some gaseous element, where you did have only 2 at first), contributing just a bit more "oomph" to the downward motion of the piston. add these 3 effects to the previously undrugged engine and you get more "zip"---a pure o2 bleed into the intake stream would only contribute one of these effects, and may do it with excessive temps... . if, however anyone could get away with it, a Diesel could... with a gasser, you'd probably get a backfire to end all backfires right in the manifold, before it ever made it thru the first open intake valve

 

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I have never used N2O in any vehicles that I've owned. But I've seen some nasty after affects that N2O has had on some of my friends pistons. I thought this was due to more heat that the pistons had to endure. I was wrong. N2O is extremely corrosive to Aluminum. To give an example,I helped a friend put in a new Edelbrock Performer intake on his '79 Z28 and about a month later he put dual fogger N2O system that had nozzles pointing down 90 degrees into the intake through a spacer plate under the carburator. He ran this system for about 1 year,racing on the weekends.
He decided to put a 427 in it and wanted to know if I wanted his Edelbrock Intake since he would no longer have use for it. So I went over to his house and helped him take it off. What we saw caught us off guard. He had 2 nickel size holes in the bottom of the intake,right where the nozzles were spraying. I found out real quick that I would never use Nitrous on any vehicle of mine when he brought over his $1,000 pistons that didn't look so good after nitrous had pitted them pretty bad.

I thought that I read a post where someone had their pistons cerama-coated or something like it,in their Cummins to protect them for the same reason. Does anyone know who that was?

I'm sure that O2 would do the same thing but only worse.
<font color=blue>

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Originally posted by jponder:
this discussion is about O2. I cant take it anymore. I am about to start bombing from the "other" side.

Mad_Scientist

Take pictures and make out a will.

I am extremely skeptical of experimenting with pure oxygen under unknown circumstances.


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Y2K 2500 QC Sport 4x4 LWB
72 Dart 340
89 LeBaron GTC 2. 2 TI

 

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Originally posted by Max340:
Take pictures and make out a will.

I am extremely skeptical of experimenting with pure oxygen under unknown circumstances.

I can see that, but what about 36%o2?? I geuss we are all comfortable with 21% because its air we have no choice.

Mad_Scientist



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2001 ETH/DEE ST 4X4 SPACE SHUTTLE

 

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I don't want to be a cold water splash in the face. . but...

N2O or good 'ole laughing gas has twice the amount of oxygen as air...

Most Nitrous setups also add fuel to take advantage of this...

In a gasoline engine the fuel to air mixture remains constant...
To create more HP, you MUST add more O2 and Fuel at that ratio to get more power.....


You essentially create a bigger explosion by adding the two parts together in a higher volume ...

In a diesel... since we routinely create black smoke at high HP. . adding N2O into the mix allows those WASTED BTU'S to be creating energy instead of clouds... ... .

Basic Physics.....

All the other considerations as far as lowering the temp of the air are SECONDARY!!!

Trust me on this one...

I've been involved with Rocket Engines for a LOOONG time... . (Getting old I guess)...

O2 is DANDEROUS STUFF... . thats why N20 is so widely utilized... it's 2/3rds safer to use.

BOMB Hard. .
Larry

 

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LarryB> All those calcs on volumes are wrong. The cummins pulls in 5. 9 evry TWO Revs. Exhaust stroke ya know. I missed that.


Larry> Lots of people are using N2O. and it is twice the Oxygen of air either by weight or # of particles. What pecent of O2 would you consider dangerous? We have 21%O2 & 79%N2 in air so I geuss evryone is cool with that. How about 36%O2 & 64%N2? Do you think taht would be a safe mixture?