API certification

[Hohn]

I just waded through a nightmare oilwar thread and realized that these fights aren't about oil at all. It seems to me to be more about trust. Like do you trust the manufacturer or the API? Say what you want about different oil companys' marketing (many of you already have, and then some), but it doesn't matter.



API certification is much ado about nothing. Anyone ever eat meat that wasn't USDA inspected? Ever taken a pill that wasn't FDA approved?



Many industry organizations are less than scrupulous. For example, the SFI, which sanctions safety equipment for drag racing. If you want to race, you have to have SFI approved safety stuff (seatbelts, scattershields, etc). It's a monopoly. There is documented proof of cases where Vendor A makes a scattershield like Vendor B does. Both are submitted for approval, but Vendor A's part fails. Vendor A BUYS Vendor B's (now-approved) part and submits it as their own for approval. Surprise! It Fails! What was the difference? Vendor B bought advertising in an industry publication, while Vendor A did not.



Standardization is a TINY part of the reason we have organizations like the API. The main is reason is that they serve as a de facto regulating body that helps to protect its members from competition. They have help from the automakers (who spec API oils) and the gov't. Why? They NEED this protection. See, the oil market is different from other businesses in that it doesn't have a high "barrier to entry. " That's an economist's term to mean that it's VERY expensive to get started in some businesses. For example, a housekeeping business has a very LOW barrier to entry-- you could start that business with almost nothing. On the other side, making cars has a VERY high barrier to entry-- you won't see someone starting a car company out of his garage.



So, since you could start whipping up oil in your shop, you could easily start a business making better oil. Indeed, many synthetic oil companies started that way. API certification is less about the oil, and more about letting that manufacturer become a member of "the club".



The only thing API certification means is that the "buyer beware" factor is less. It means the stakes are lower. Without API certification, you might end up with an oil that is either MUCH WORSE or MUCH BETTER. YOU have to decide what your tolerance for risk is. Just like investing-- some people will day-trade, other will buy savings bonds.



Compare this to tapping the pump wire. Getting rid of your warrantee means the stakes are higher. It might be much WORSE (VP44 blows up) or much BETTER (Comp on 5x5 is hard to argue against). BTW, I think that it's unethical to tap the wire and try to hide it-- either tap it or don't, but accept the consequences of either.



I would encourage each of us to consider how much stock we put in others looking out for us. No one cares as much about you as YOU do. That's why the police can never protect you as well as you can protect yourself with a 9MM. No doctor cares as much about your health as you do. No one cares more about the oil in your truck than YOU do-- certainly not the API.



Some people need the feeling of security that a warranty or API certification brings (just like they feel better about having more security at airports). Fine, but ask yourself if it's anything more than just a feeling. Are you REALLY any more secure having all that airport harassment? Are you REALLY any more protected having a warrantee on your vehicle (which it seems they are always trying to get out of)? Are you REALLY making your engine safer with an API certified oil?



The bottom line is that the people that want or need API certification are free to do that, and have their reasons. The main reason is that they just aren't comfortable with a higher level of risk in this area, or many others of life. It is CERTAINLY not a reason to harang others who are more adventurous, and try to CONVERT them to a certain point of view. Let those who are comfortable with higher-stakes living enjoy that. It is the RISK TAKER that makes America great. Without risk takers, there would be no private business, no Capitalism, no competition, and also NO PROGRESS.



Ultimately, we are ALL not only our own warrantee stations, but our own life stations. What we eat, what we say, how we spend our time-- they are all part of the never-ending trail of decisions (and consequences) that make up our lives.



Enjoy yours to the fullest, and don't try to discourage someone else from doing so.





Hohn

(soon converting to non-API Redline oil)

 

[Pit Bull]

Hohn, I don't know if you should switch to that Redline, your going to miss the smell of the Rotella T when you change oil. My only suggestion is that you should now eat only refried beans for the first 500 miles after your Redline oil change. That should make the transition transparent.

 

[Hohn]

I hear ya

Thanks, PB. I started today with 3 Taco Bell bean burritos as a warm up. Makes even my Delo smell like Rotella (I just did an oil change and went to Delo from Rotella)



jlh

 

[Hohn]

TTT because I want to say it again

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

AH - the "Certification is meaningless" line of reasoning... .



LESSEE, you are flying in an aircraft of questionable reliability (only God knows why... ), and you have a choice of either an FAA approved parachute - or what APPEARS to be a similar one WITHOUT FAA approval - which will you choose?



You or a loved one need open heart surgery - you can choose between either of 2 doctors in your area - one has the AMA certificates on his wall and coresponding diplomas - and the other, with a similat number of satisfied past patients - has NO certification or diploma - which will you trust your, or a loved one's life with?



It's about a little MORE than just certification - in at least a small degree, it's about RISK acceptance - if oil brands "A" and "B" both cost pretty much the same, but one HAS API certification and the other does NOT, upon what basis would YOU choose the uncertified one?



Great advertising?

Nice looking bottle?

A good friend uses it, and his engine hasn't blown up yet?

 

[Todd T]

yeah, it's about economics and name branding.



I once walked out of tractor pull becuase Cen pe co was forcing all the participants to plaster thier stickers on our trucks.



I dont know about you, but i dont even have the manufacturers stickers on MY truck. if you cant tell its a Dodge without walking around back and reading it form the tailgate, you're too stupid for me to talk to.



Run what you want, just live with the consequences! I dont run name brand oil in my truck but they've been in business for over 130 years so they must be doing something right.



Shell oil screwed several hundred of our local employees out of pension money a few years ago. The bottles on the shelves around here are pretty dusty too.



live long and prosper. the Cummins will keep running not matter what oil you're burning.

 

[LightmanE300]

AH - the "Certification is meaningless" line of reasoning... .



LESSEE, you are flying in an aircraft of questionable reliability (only God knows why... ), and you have a choice of either an FAA approved parachute - or what APPEARS to be a similar one WITHOUT FAA approval - which will you choose?



You or a loved one need open heart surgery - you can choose between either of 2 doctors in your area - one has the AMA certificates on his wall and coresponding diplomas - and the other, with a similat number of satisfied past patients - has NO certification or diploma - which will you trust your, or a loved one's life with?



It's about a little MORE than just certification - in at least a small degree, it's about RISK acceptance - if oil brands "A" and "B" both cost pretty much the same, but one HAS API certification and the other does NOT, upon what basis would YOU choose the uncertified one?



Great advertising?

Nice looking bottle?

A good friend uses it, and his engine hasn't blown up yet?

I have to agree with Gary to a degree on this one. There is certainly a comfort factor involved using certified oils. Those that DO value their factory warranty, have a small comfort factor knowing that their oils are API certified. As everyone knows, the dealer will try to deny warranty claims any way they can - so why give them an easy reason and use a non certified oil? I for one value the warranty I paid for with my vehicle purchase. As Hohn said, it depends how much risk you are willing to live with. I have decided to risk warranty coverage on oil based failures due to the installation of my bypass system.



That aside, I'm not trying to discredit the other major oil companies though. I am not concerned with nice looking bottles or friends, but when I see oil analysis after analysis showing various Redline or Amsoil oils doing a great job - that's enough for me. I don't think anyone should be scared away from Amsoil or Redline or RP simply on the basis of API - however I think there is less comfort factor without research in using any of those brands.

 

[Hohn]

AH - the "Certification is meaningless" line of reasoning... .

LESSEE, you are flying in an aircraft of questionable reliability (only God knows why... ), and you have a choice of either an FAA approved parachute - or what APPEARS to be a similar one WITHOUT FAA approval - which will you choose?

You or a loved one need open heart surgery - you can choose between either of 2 doctors in your area - one has the AMA certificates on his wall and coresponding diplomas - and the other, with a similat number of satisfied past patients - has NO certification or diploma - which will you trust your, or a loved one's life with?

It's about a little MORE than just certification - in at least a small degree, it's about RISK acceptance - if oil brands "A" and "B" both cost pretty much the same, but one HAS API certification and the other does NOT, upon what basis would YOU choose the uncertified one?

Great advertising?
Nice looking bottle?
A good friend uses it, and his engine hasn't blown up yet?

Gary, hold on a second. I didn't say certification is meaningless in general.

I said the API certification is not all people want to think it is.

God knows I don't have ANY special softspot for the brand A crowd that it associated with this reasoning.

The truth is, some certifications mean a LOT less than others!

Example A- a "certified financial planner". A CFP possesses NOT A SINGLE SKILL NOR ANY KNOWLEDGE that a person couldn't give THEMSELVES for the cost of a few hours surfing FREE internet sites. Anything on money management, investing, insurance, loans, retirement planning, etc can be self-educated FOR FREE. So what is the value of THIS certification? Is it even remotely comparable to AMA or FAA certification?

What about even FDA approval? Vioxx, anyone?

I rest my case.

 

[Pit Bull]

I just want to know which brand of oil you guys think tastes the best?

 

[2broke2smoke]

I dont know about you, but i dont even have the manufacturers stickers on MY truck. if you cant tell its a Dodge without walking around back and reading it form the tailgate, you're too stupid for me to talk to. Run what you want, just live with the consequences!



live long and prosper. the Cummins will keep running not matter what oil you're burning.

there ya have it folks!

 

[AKAMAC]

Great revival Hohn! I must have missed it on the first go-around.



I replaced the coker testing systems for a large oil company here in the Bay Area. The systems were analogous to the API tests. Oil was "flung" onto a steel or other metal plate that was heated in steps to a temperature below its flash point. This data was recorded and graphed and the plate was examined for "oil cook point. " (The point where it will varnish on the plate. ) There was also a bearing pressure testing or load cell press that was used on the oil in test procedure. I was surprised at the load the small ball bearing tests would take with some of the oils that were used. All in all I believe that any manufacture would be in CYA mode before releasing a product that sells cheap and protects a lot. I know this company did. Mike

 

[americana]

gary, gary, gary, i love ya gary... even sent you a pm a long while back telling you so as i recall, but i'll have to stray from my gary support mode and say your logic is a little flawed here.



now... i'm taking the bait here because i am an FAA licensed parachute rigger... i have also been an unlicensed parachute rigger in the ol' USMC (among a lot of other things... but that's another forum)... i have jumped out of FAA approved planes and have jumped out of non-FAA approved airplanes.



anytime you improve or change for change's sake (marketing) product x and that product x requires some kind of god-like approval from the government you must go through the costly approval process again. having intimate knowledge of the parachute and motorcycle industry i know this for a fact. product x may cause less pollution or may save more lives or perform better, but do we the consumer have to pay through the nose in these hidden costs?



"i'm from the government and i'm here to help" usually means they are after money and justification for their jobs. i know ... . a few times in my life... i was stammering just such jibberish.



oh, and by the way, Capt Hohn, i have eaten non-FDA approved meat... it was called huntin' back in the day. now most people here in the SF Bay area just call it murder.



now don't get me wrong, as a licensed engineer i do appreciate products meeting certain standards, i just don't agree with how the government goes around imposing those standards.



the above is just my opinion and i have no plans to petition the government to impose and license my standard of thinking on anyone else... .

 

[rbattelle]

This is an interesting discussion. Generally, I fully support standardization and the organizations (like FAA, AIAA, ASME, SAE, ASHRAE, etc) that go along with it, but I think it's important to research any standards organization to determine whether it operates in the public's best interest.



Interestingly, Hohn points out the ridiculous "certification" that is CFP. Of course, the difference between a CFP and something like the API is that the CFP program "certifies" people and API certifies material goods. Material goods can be tested scientifically; people are a different matter altogether. I tend to regard certifications of people (including things like CFP and ASE) with a greater degree of skepticism.



So the question is, is the API corrupt? Some basic internet research (Google search on things like "API corruption") didn't yield anything substantial. I did find some documentation from environmental groups that purport to link the current administration with "big oil" and "big coal" interests, but nothing that specifically implicated the API in any conspiracies. Does belief that the API is corrupt constitute a "black helicopter theory"?



If the API is corrupt, is NLGI also corrupt? What about organizations that support API, like ASTM and SAE? Is there any specific documented case where "Company B", whose product was formerly denied API certification, purchases and submits "Company A's" (fully certified) product only to be denied acceptance?



It is interesting that API membership is absolutely contingent on the following:



1. Only corporations based in North America

2. Engagement in the oil and gas industry or an "allied industry"



Here is a cut-and-paste of the API mission:





To influence public policy in support of a strong, viable U. S. oil and natural gas industry essential to meet the energy needs of consumers in an efficient, environmentally responsible manner.

As the U. S. oil and natural gas industry’s primary trade association, API:



* Engages in federal and state legislative and regulatory advocacy that is based on scientific research; technical legal and economic analysis; and public issues communication.

* Provides an industry forum to develop consensus policies and collective action on issues impacting its members.

* Works collaboratively with all industry oil and gas associations, and other organizations, to enhance industry unity and effectiveness in its advocacy.



API also provides the opportunity for standards development, technical cooperation and other activities to improve the industry’s competitiveness through sponsorship of self-supporting programs.



Very interesting reading. The API specifically states that it exists to support its members, NOT consumers.



On the one hand, it seems almost an "open and shut" case for API certification programs to exist only to serve the interests of "big oil". On the other hand, I think there is tremendous value (indeed, perhaps a necessity) for standardization in lubricating oils.



So we return to the basic question: does API certification say anything useful about the quality of any specific lubricating oil?



I don't know.



If you look at NLGI's misson and history, they are also populated with grease manufacturers and do not allow individual people to join.



Places like ASHRAE (American Society of Heating, Refrigeration, and Air conditioning Engineers) allow individual people to become members. These types of organizations are generally governed by a body of individuals (rather than companies) who work toward supporting other individuals in the field and advancing the integrity, technology, and standardization of the entire industry by influencing individual members.



What I'm searching for here is some kind of "line" to draw between organizations whose motivation lies in supporting end-users and the quality of life of the populace as a whole, and those whose motivation lies primarily with protecting its membership's profitability. Perhaps the answer lies with the difference between an organization whose constiuency is primarily corporations in a common industry and an organization whose constituency lies primarily with people of a common trade. Perhaps it comes down to "trade organizations" versus "lobbyist organizations"?



If, then, there exists no lubricating oil or grease standardization, where do we go to find out if a specific lubricating oil/grease meets certain requirements for a particular application? Perhaps ASTM is the answer. Only problem is, they only publish testing standards, which means oil manufacturers would need to list their scores on specific ASTM tests in order for consumers to make useful comparisons among oil brands. Recognizing the logistical problems with such a system, do companies like GM, Ford, DC, Cummins, etc. specify API-certified oils because API certification provides a quick, easy way to tell the consumer which oils meet some minimum standards? Is that wise, considering the motivations of the API?



Maybe this all generates more questions than answers.



-Ryan

 

[Cooker]

Example A- a "certified financial planner". A CFP possesses NOT A SINGLE SKILL NOR ANY KNOWLEDGE that a person couldn't give THEMSELVES for the cost of a few hours surfing FREE internet sites. Anything on money management, investing, insurance, loans, retirement planning, etc can be self-educated FOR FREE. So what is the value of THIS certification? Is it even remotely comparable to AMA or FAA certification?

I don't know how I missed this one. I do take a little offence to this comment.



It would take a person a very long time to self educate themselves with enough knowledge to pass the CFP exam. Many people in the industry cannot pass the CFP exam without educational assistance. Yes you are correct that it could be done with some trial and error along the way, but if you put me in a flight simulator long enough I bet I could learn how to fly a real plane eventually too



Also to be allowed to use the CFP designation after your name you need two years of work related experience in addition to passing the exam.



FWIW I agree with the idea that there is a ton of corruption with certfication of material products. To me some of the product certfications are awarded to whoever has the most money.

 

[PRout]

I agree w/ Gary. The certs are there to keep standards clearly defined and documented. In the long run they do keep products more consistant, with less chances of a bad or varied batch from the original. Its probably not a perfect system, but at least you know that the product gets periodically tested and has to meet the original standard. It also means that we dont need to be oil experts to know we are buying the right oil for our rigs. If the mfg specifies oil of a certain rating, and your product meets the rating, youre basically pretty safe.



Were doing alot of hair splitting saying that amsoil is better than delo, which is better than rotella. They ALL work, and really arent worth arguing over.



Your motor isnt going to fail from running rotella instead of amsoil.

 

[RustyJC]

API certification is much ado about nothing.

Justin,



Although we agree on many things, the value of independent 3rd party certification testing isn't one of them.



Rusty

 

[john3976]

Amsoil reminds me of the Slick 50 test, Trust us!

Sorry, but the way Amsoil does business reminds me of Slick 50 and their tests, and the way they just want you to trust them.



Amsoil is doing the same thing, they claim to have run all these tests yet they refuse to revile the information other then saying they beat everyone, sound familiar? think Slick 50.



By getting certified and any oil company can get certified, you are proving that your product does in fact meet the manufactures guidelines.



Have you read the Amsoil warranty?



You have about a snow balls chance in hades of ever getting Amsoil to step up to the plate, there are more outs for Amsoil in their warranty then there are holes in swiss cheese.



Nope give me API certified oil like Royal Purple and I will at least know that Dodge or Cummins have to repair my truck if it does break under warranty, with Amsoil you pays your money and you takes your chances.

 

[Hohn]

Justin,



Although we agree on many things, the value of independent 3rd party certification testing isn't one of them.



Rusty

Rusty, we aren't as far apart as I may have led you to believe. Independent 3rd party testing is good, imo.



But I'm not convinced that the API is truly "independent", given the high fees charged for testing, and the fact that the governing body admits that it's a trade group-- i. e. , an interest group or lobbying party. It certainly seems to be designed to protect the big guys from competition, at least from my amateur viewpoint.



Standardization is good, but when it's abused (as I feel the API does), then it harms the good that is done.

 

[Hohn]

Sorry, but the way Amsoil does business reminds me of Slick 50 and their tests, and the way they just want you to trust them.



Amsoil is doing the same thing, they claim to have run all these tests yet they refuse to revile the information other then saying they beat everyone, sound familiar? think Slick 50.



By getting certified and any oil company can get certified, you are proving that your product does in fact meet the manufactures guidelines.



Have you read the Amsoil warranty?



You have about a snow balls chance in hades of ever getting Amsoil to step up to the plate, there are more outs for Amsoil in their warranty then there are holes in swiss cheese.



Nope give me API certified oil like Royal Purple and I will at least know that Dodge or Cummins have to repair my truck if it does break under warranty, with Amsoil you pays your money and you takes your chances.

I agree. While I think that Amsoil's oils are among the best available, their chosen method of marketing leaves a taste in my mouth so bad that it drives me away from them.



It's also encouraging to me that "little guys" like RP have been able to get big enough to where they can get API certification. Why won't amsoil?



If amsoil were just about oil, they would do better. Instead they promote this cult-like idea that THEY are the key to unlocking the whole API/foreign oil/gov't/big oil company conspiracy.





IMHO, if you make a better oil and sell it for a better price, then your marketing is DONE.



jlh

 

[RustyJC]

Justin,



If an unsophisticated consumer walks into Fred's Big Box emporium and picks up 11 quarts of Fred's Magical Mouse Milk, 15W-40 with the API CI-4 donut (or CI-4 Plus, if you will), then that consumer has at least some degree of confidence that the Mouse Milk will meet the minimum requirements for his/her new Dodge/Cummins. Without the API donut, who knows??????



Rusty