Wait till you try DC negative in the rain 
, You will learn to love AC then. :-laf
, You will learn to love AC then. :-laf
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Arc (Stick) Welding Tips
- Thread starter rbattelle
- Start Date
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fmj
TDR MEMBER
This was a great thread and I gathered a lot of good info. I too thought that stick welding was old stuff, but have seen guys that do wonders with it. My nephew was a pipe fitter and I learned a lot from watching him stick weld. Last year I broke a bracket on a header pipe in Big Bear, CA. I went to the yellow pages and got a guy that would weld it up. It was stainless. When he went to weld it he grabbed a stick and I thought oh oh :--) . Amazing the weld is stronger than the origional done on a TIG, and it looks good too. There are some talented guys out there. Thats obvious from the info here on this thread.
Ryan,
How high are the currents mentioned in the book, where blow out occurs. Not knowing specifically, I would guess that the current (amperage) would be higher than 300 amps. I have not seen, in my line of work, a rod which we would be running current that high.
Arc blow out is where the puddle gets so big and hot that it falls out of the weld area.
When welding a magnetic field is produced..... the higher the current the stronger the field. This field is what can mess up electrical components on a vehicle... .computers and such..... always disconnect the battery. This field can work against the welder and cause problems in the weld puddle also. I think, but not certain, that welding with big rod and high current on AC works because the magnetic field collapses as the welding current runs back and forth in the rod. ----see post 33----
DC machines, the size you're going to use, will work better because it is a constant current... . If you had two machines side by side, with the same stick, heat setting and ran one on AC and one on DC you would see and head the difference in the weld arc.
I don't know if I am making any sense here. If not keep asking questions.
Dave
How high are the currents mentioned in the book, where blow out occurs. Not knowing specifically, I would guess that the current (amperage) would be higher than 300 amps. I have not seen, in my line of work, a rod which we would be running current that high.
Arc blow out is where the puddle gets so big and hot that it falls out of the weld area.
When welding a magnetic field is produced..... the higher the current the stronger the field. This field is what can mess up electrical components on a vehicle... .computers and such..... always disconnect the battery. This field can work against the welder and cause problems in the weld puddle also. I think, but not certain, that welding with big rod and high current on AC works because the magnetic field collapses as the welding current runs back and forth in the rod. ----see post 33----
DC machines, the size you're going to use, will work better because it is a constant current... . If you had two machines side by side, with the same stick, heat setting and ran one on AC and one on DC you would see and head the difference in the weld arc.
I don't know if I am making any sense here. If not keep asking questions.
Dave
rbattelle
TDR MEMBER
DValentine - Machinery's Handbook mentions nothing about what amperage "blow out" occurs in DC welding, so your guess is as good as mine. Acutually, I'm a bit disappointed in that book's treatment of SMAW welding in general. Leaves a lot to be desired.
I have a couple more questions. Why is it so much easier to strike an arc once I've consumed about 1/4 to 1/3 of the electrode? Is it because the material is heated? I know it's not because the electrode is hot, because I've let them cool and I can still strike the arc easily on the first try with a 1/2 length electrode. Does it have to do with the lower resistance in a shorter electrode?
They say welding vertically with AC current is nearly impossible, but last night I managed to do it. Why do some people say it's nearly impossible?
The real thing is I want to buy a Hobart Stickmate LX 225AC / 160DC machine, but I don't want to get it hoping it will improve my welding if it actually won't improve my arc-strike success very much at all. So as a result I'm just biding my time practicing lots on my little stinker machine. There's no question I'm going to buy a big machine, I just don't want to buy one for the "wrong reason" (ie, to improve my arc strike consistency). That might sound really weird, but I'm the kind of person who would prefer to master the hardest possible method of doing things so that I can appreciate the "easy way" that much more. If a big professional-grade AC/DC arc welder won't significantly improve my ability to strike an arc, then there's no point in my shelling out the cash right now.
I think I need to just pony up the cash and see what happens.
-Ryan
I have a couple more questions. Why is it so much easier to strike an arc once I've consumed about 1/4 to 1/3 of the electrode? Is it because the material is heated? I know it's not because the electrode is hot, because I've let them cool and I can still strike the arc easily on the first try with a 1/2 length electrode. Does it have to do with the lower resistance in a shorter electrode?
They say welding vertically with AC current is nearly impossible, but last night I managed to do it. Why do some people say it's nearly impossible?
The real thing is I want to buy a Hobart Stickmate LX 225AC / 160DC machine, but I don't want to get it hoping it will improve my welding if it actually won't improve my arc-strike success very much at all. So as a result I'm just biding my time practicing lots on my little stinker machine. There's no question I'm going to buy a big machine, I just don't want to buy one for the "wrong reason" (ie, to improve my arc strike consistency). That might sound really weird, but I'm the kind of person who would prefer to master the hardest possible method of doing things so that I can appreciate the "easy way" that much more. If a big professional-grade AC/DC arc welder won't significantly improve my ability to strike an arc, then there's no point in my shelling out the cash right now.
I think I need to just pony up the cash and see what happens.
-Ryan
You really don't need to blow alot of cash to get a good d/c stick machine. Any of the newer name brand machines weld great. Just remember that all the fancy sheetmetal and knobs just cost more, they won't necessarily make you any better. Get one with an adjustable reostat and you'll be right on track. An a/c arc sucks after you get used to d/c.
If you get to the point that you can make a decient weld with what you have, you will be very happy when you do move up.
Striking short rods... . You might be more steady with the short stick. That is my thought.
I have asked guys about the resistance in a rod as it is consumed... that the amperage would go up as it got shorter. For us it is usually the 300 foot of lead strung from the machines to where ever we are welding in the boiler cavity. Bad connections or grounds can cause a guy to scratch his head!!!
Ssteffanini is right about the cost of welders... . just like anything else... Flash = Cash
You might go to a welding supply store and try out some machines... . they usually have a place in the shop for guys to burn some rod. Don't worry about your skill level... . just try some machines... stick machines on DC reverse polarity and see what you think. Then buy what you want... but you will have a better idea what you need/want and how it will work for you.
Dave
Striking short rods... . You might be more steady with the short stick. That is my thought.
I have asked guys about the resistance in a rod as it is consumed... that the amperage would go up as it got shorter. For us it is usually the 300 foot of lead strung from the machines to where ever we are welding in the boiler cavity. Bad connections or grounds can cause a guy to scratch his head!!!
Ssteffanini is right about the cost of welders... . just like anything else... Flash = Cash
You might go to a welding supply store and try out some machines... . they usually have a place in the shop for guys to burn some rod. Don't worry about your skill level... . just try some machines... stick machines on DC reverse polarity and see what you think. Then buy what you want... but you will have a better idea what you need/want and how it will work for you.
Dave
DValentine, you a boilermaker? Union? 300' foot of twisted up, scarred cable run off an 8 pack does seem to affect arc stability.
rbattelle
TDR MEMBER
Thanks for the great advice, as always. When I say "load of cash" I mean roughly $400. Which, actually, isn't THAT much cash, but it's enough for me to want to be absolutely sure that when I buy it really will be an upgrade worth $400 of my hard-earned money.
A friend's father has a Lincoln 225 AC machine and he offered to let me try a couple beads with it. I will probably do that before buying. (But I have to drive an hour to his house to do this).
DValentine, I didn't know welding shops might have an area where you can try a machine. I'll call around see if I can find one.
One of the things I suspect might be giving me a bit of trouble is the maximum Open Circuit Voltage (OCV) on my machine: 37v. The bigger machines have 80v. I read somewhere that OCV has an effect on arc striking.
BTW, I am doing "pretty good" in my training, considering I'm almost a total amateur! Once I get an arc going I can make "decent" beads on a piece of flat sheet metal. I've also tried some rusty metal and some practice on pieces with a 90 degree bend (to simulate a tee-joint). As I said before, arc starting is much easier for me with larger rods (3/32)... perhaps because the tip is steadier. Those 1/16" rods are just too thin and they bounce around like crazy.
I'm going to get that Stickmate... I just need to "---- or get off the pot" and be done with it. :-laf
On edit: I can't imagine the size of a boiler that needs 300' of cable to get into !
-Ryan
A friend's father has a Lincoln 225 AC machine and he offered to let me try a couple beads with it. I will probably do that before buying. (But I have to drive an hour to his house to do this).
DValentine, I didn't know welding shops might have an area where you can try a machine. I'll call around see if I can find one.
One of the things I suspect might be giving me a bit of trouble is the maximum Open Circuit Voltage (OCV) on my machine: 37v. The bigger machines have 80v. I read somewhere that OCV has an effect on arc striking.
BTW, I am doing "pretty good" in my training, considering I'm almost a total amateur! Once I get an arc going I can make "decent" beads on a piece of flat sheet metal. I've also tried some rusty metal and some practice on pieces with a 90 degree bend (to simulate a tee-joint). As I said before, arc starting is much easier for me with larger rods (3/32)... perhaps because the tip is steadier. Those 1/16" rods are just too thin and they bounce around like crazy.
I'm going to get that Stickmate... I just need to "---- or get off the pot" and be done with it. :-laf
On edit: I can't imagine the size of a boiler that needs 300' of cable to get into !
-Ryan
Also Ryan you are wasting too much worry on strtiking the arc. That will come naturally no matter what welder you are using. All of a sudden you will wonder what the heck the problem was and not even know what you did to learn it.
If I were you I would go get that Hobart you want and weld with it. The welder you are training on is only of practical use around the body shop and that should be done with a wire welder anyhow.
You need to get to a dc machine that is big enough (200-250) to not run out of power.
As for arc blowout the dc machine that you will be using wont casue any issue like that, Actually i've never heard of it.
It just takes practice, practice, practice. I have no idea back on the farm at 11yrs old how mcuh rod I burned. Hy first instruction was "I cant tell you much,,just keep the rod about 1/8 away and start burning. "
After all these years as a non professional farmer welder I still stick rods and have to throw a couple once in a while. I cant tell you why,, habit I guess but I scratch the rod on cement before striking the arc.
Using that small welder you prob use lignt base metal,, the ground may not be secure and it may jump around as you are trying to get an arc started,
Heck buddy no worry you will get it,, jsut keep buying rod, keep it dry keep the slag chipped and keep burning. If a rod give you too much trouble its prob getting too hot pitch it and get a new one. Also use a autodarking helmet instead of one you must flip down if you already dont have one.
Darn, I cant quit writing,, more important than concentrating on starting the arc is to learn what is going on durning the weld process. It takes some time to make the movement automatci based on what the eye sees happening at the weld itself.
Well I'm prob writing too much,, jsut want to tellya to keep it up!!!
Edit: YOu caought me whilst I was writing this prose. . The 90 bend will not zatly simulate a fillet weld cause of the heat xfer between the two plates.
Anyway you have the right idea,, burn burn brun
If I were you I would go get that Hobart you want and weld with it. The welder you are training on is only of practical use around the body shop and that should be done with a wire welder anyhow.
You need to get to a dc machine that is big enough (200-250) to not run out of power.
As for arc blowout the dc machine that you will be using wont casue any issue like that, Actually i've never heard of it.
It just takes practice, practice, practice. I have no idea back on the farm at 11yrs old how mcuh rod I burned. Hy first instruction was "I cant tell you much,,just keep the rod about 1/8 away and start burning. "
After all these years as a non professional farmer welder I still stick rods and have to throw a couple once in a while. I cant tell you why,, habit I guess but I scratch the rod on cement before striking the arc.
Using that small welder you prob use lignt base metal,, the ground may not be secure and it may jump around as you are trying to get an arc started,
Heck buddy no worry you will get it,, jsut keep buying rod, keep it dry keep the slag chipped and keep burning. If a rod give you too much trouble its prob getting too hot pitch it and get a new one. Also use a autodarking helmet instead of one you must flip down if you already dont have one.
Darn, I cant quit writing,, more important than concentrating on starting the arc is to learn what is going on durning the weld process. It takes some time to make the movement automatci based on what the eye sees happening at the weld itself.
Well I'm prob writing too much,, jsut want to tellya to keep it up!!!
Edit: YOu caought me whilst I was writing this prose. . The 90 bend will not zatly simulate a fillet weld cause of the heat xfer between the two plates.
Anyway you have the right idea,, burn burn brun
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$400 will get you everything you need. Your probably working harder against your equipment than you need to be when learning. Save a trip on trying out the 225ac machine. I was given one once, it's not going to give you a good indication of your skill level. Depending on how much time you have to waste try a tech school for night classes. This will put you in touch with the right equipment and training and mabe give a better foundation to start with. I've welded pipes together for 14 years and am still working towards getting better at it. And yes you're right its might be hard to imagine a boiler that big, but its even worse to have to crawl into one of those nasty things, fortunately pipefitters don't have to very often.
JField
TDR MEMBER
DC vs AC welding
Hi Ryan
DC current is preferred as it provides a continuous uninterrupted flow of current. AC on the other hand has a slight, although undetectable pause, as it changes flow direction. DC electrode positive is best and I would use 6013 as you learn. It strikes well, has easy slag removal, and is strong and will meet your needs in most flat or horizontal welding situations. 1/8 " 6013 requires 110 to 120 amps so 1/16" will require roughly half that setting.
Practice will build confidence and produce better and better results, so good luck and have fun.
Hi Ryan
DC current is preferred as it provides a continuous uninterrupted flow of current. AC on the other hand has a slight, although undetectable pause, as it changes flow direction. DC electrode positive is best and I would use 6013 as you learn. It strikes well, has easy slag removal, and is strong and will meet your needs in most flat or horizontal welding situations. 1/8 " 6013 requires 110 to 120 amps so 1/16" will require roughly half that setting.
Practice will build confidence and produce better and better results, so good luck and have fun.
Sstefanni,
Yes, I am a Boilermaker Local union 11 here in Montana. The guy I bought my house from left a 225 buzz box that I have used at night when I couldn't fire up my old gas machine. It left a less than desirable taste in my mouth. I agree with you.
Ryan, you might buy a machine on line, or what ever, but a Lincoln, Miller, Hobart dealer should have a spot in the back for you to try out some machines. Thats what I mean... not a welding shop (fab shop). If you are going to buy a stick mate... I suggest running it before you buy... . The dealer will supply rod and metal scrap to play on. They want to make a sale should accommodate you. I ran millers little 150 Maxstar a few winters ago. I was very impressed and want to buy it for myself... . but for now I get by with what I have. If you buy a DC inverter welder instead of a AC/ DC machine you will be happier---in my opinion. I can't remember if Miller still makes the Maxstar anymore. I mentioned earlier that Thermal Arc also makes a good machine. Yes SSteffanni they are not as well know as big red and big blue... . but I have seen quite a few on the bigger jobs I have been on, and seem to hold up to what the guys put them through..... arc gouging at 400 amps and then tig welding a root in at 85 amps.
If you bought an inverter type that was 150 to 200 amps you would be set for the rest of your life..... except for the plazma arc you will be thinking within the next year :-laf
OCV..... I have wondered what that is... . looked it up in the back of a Miller catalog..... still don't know what it means.
I'll do some research... .
Dave
ps... ryan... . you want to BS on the phone some night I'll call you if you want... . I'm not working right now.
Yes, I am a Boilermaker Local union 11 here in Montana. The guy I bought my house from left a 225 buzz box that I have used at night when I couldn't fire up my old gas machine. It left a less than desirable taste in my mouth. I agree with you.
Ryan, you might buy a machine on line, or what ever, but a Lincoln, Miller, Hobart dealer should have a spot in the back for you to try out some machines. Thats what I mean... not a welding shop (fab shop). If you are going to buy a stick mate... I suggest running it before you buy... . The dealer will supply rod and metal scrap to play on. They want to make a sale should accommodate you. I ran millers little 150 Maxstar a few winters ago. I was very impressed and want to buy it for myself... . but for now I get by with what I have. If you buy a DC inverter welder instead of a AC/ DC machine you will be happier---in my opinion. I can't remember if Miller still makes the Maxstar anymore. I mentioned earlier that Thermal Arc also makes a good machine. Yes SSteffanni they are not as well know as big red and big blue... . but I have seen quite a few on the bigger jobs I have been on, and seem to hold up to what the guys put them through..... arc gouging at 400 amps and then tig welding a root in at 85 amps.
If you bought an inverter type that was 150 to 200 amps you would be set for the rest of your life..... except for the plazma arc you will be thinking within the next year :-laf
OCV..... I have wondered what that is... . looked it up in the back of a Miller catalog..... still don't know what it means.
I'll do some research... .
Dave
ps... ryan... . you want to BS on the phone some night I'll call you if you want... . I'm not working right now.
Ryan if I were to advise a person how to weld I would suggest a Lincoln (or any make) 225 AC machine. Buy a quality Hood not self darkening, use a comfortable stool or seat. Purchase a quality pair of welding gloves at least a $14. and up pair and use them. Use a pair of saftey glasses, they will help avoid Arc Flash (hot sand in eye pain) use 1/8 6011 (AC Rod). Before you even attempt to strike an Arc make sure you are in a comfortable position, that will help greatly. One would think Arc Welding was a "Black Art". If you start out as outlined, and Master it, you will find that any other forms of welding Mig, Tig, etc. quite easy, plus Carbon Arc gouging Carbon Brazing and Plasma Cutting, using Plasma if what you are working on conducts Electricity it's all yours. If you are well schooled on the Basics you will probably find the rest manageable, but it's the Foundation. Learn to drive using Stick Shift and one can pretty well drive most engine powered conveyance. Scrum Down
Yeah, I agree open circut voltage..... but what does it mean. ?????
Maybe I am just being a block head
Does it have something to do with the machine at rest???
Dave
Maybe I am just being a block head
Does it have something to do with the machine at rest???
Dave
JField
TDR MEMBER
Open circuit voltage
Open-Circuit Voltage (OCV)-As the name implies, no current is flowing in the circuit because the circuit is open. The voltage is impressed upon the circuit, however, so that when the circuit is completed, the current will flow immediately. For example, a welding machine that is turned on but not being used for welding at the moment will have an open-circuit voltage applied to the cables attached to the output terminals of the welding machine.
Open-Circuit Voltage (OCV)-As the name implies, no current is flowing in the circuit because the circuit is open. The voltage is impressed upon the circuit, however, so that when the circuit is completed, the current will flow immediately. For example, a welding machine that is turned on but not being used for welding at the moment will have an open-circuit voltage applied to the cables attached to the output terminals of the welding machine.
DValentine is right about inverters, they rock! They'll do everything a full blown 3 phase, 400lb multipurpose shop machine can do but in a 40lb package. The company I work for does high purity stainless tube installations and all we use are 150A 110/220 inverters. We have a Maxstar 150 and a couple Thermal Arc 150's for field use. They'll take the abuse and will run decently on a 110 input and just like a big machine on 220. Not to make your purchasing decision any harder but if I could buy a new machine I'd look at 140 Maxstars on E-Bay. I've seen them sell for around $400 bucks from time to time and have come close to buying one more than once.
Tsk Tsk DValentine, Sitting at the house in the middle of outage season?
Tsk Tsk DValentine, Sitting at the house in the middle of outage season?
rbattelle
TDR MEMBER
DValentine said:
They do still make the Maxstar 150, and it fits my budget (<$700), but now you guys have totally thrown a wrench into my whole world! I was all set to get the Stickmate (aka Miller Thunderbolt), and now there's this "inverter" thing everyone's wild about!
Why is the inverter so much greater than the AC/DC stick machines? It's DC-only, right? Is there something special about the type of power it puts out? Being DC only (and limited to 150 amp) it seems less flexible than the AC/DC machine I had been considering.
Now I'm very confused. Tell me more about the advantages of the Maxstar (besides portability).
On edit: that Maxstar does look REALLY cool, especially the "Arcstart" feature! But the lack of AC output makes me a little nervous. Should I be?
On 2nd edit: just noticed the inverters won't do aluminum. I don't understand why they won't. I'd like the capability to do aluminum... not a critical need, but would be "convenient".
On 3rd edit: oh, wait, I think the Maxstar 150 WILL stick weld Aluminum. It just won't TIG weld Aluminum. That's good enough for me!
-Ryan
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There isn't much reason to have an A/C output on a stick machine as far as I know. You might be able to TIG aluminum with the A/C on some machines but would have to add a high frequency box to do it. If you have a d/c machine you won't switch it to run a/c, trust me.
The only great advantage to inverters is size. What used to take a forklift to move around can now be carried on your shoulder. The newer machines also have whats called "auto-link" which allows you to plug into various power sources without cracking the sheet metal to change your welder to fit the voltage your tying into. Simply put, if you need enough current out of your 150A machine to TIG 16ga carbon just plug it into a 110 outlet. Then a friend who just broke his 3/8" plate thingamajig pulls up and needs it welded together right now, all you do is add a pigtail to the cord and plug it into your wifes dryer outlet. Bam! now your melting 3/32" 7018's like butter (with slag peeling off in one piece. 200lb machines have already become dinosaurs its just that not many people wear out welders so they haven't had to be replaced: yet.
The only great advantage to inverters is size. What used to take a forklift to move around can now be carried on your shoulder. The newer machines also have whats called "auto-link" which allows you to plug into various power sources without cracking the sheet metal to change your welder to fit the voltage your tying into. Simply put, if you need enough current out of your 150A machine to TIG 16ga carbon just plug it into a 110 outlet. Then a friend who just broke his 3/8" plate thingamajig pulls up and needs it welded together right now, all you do is add a pigtail to the cord and plug it into your wifes dryer outlet. Bam! now your melting 3/32" 7018's like butter (with slag peeling off in one piece. 200lb machines have already become dinosaurs its just that not many people wear out welders so they haven't had to be replaced: yet.
Well shoot!!!! that means my 1967 Lincoln 225 Onan Powered DC welder is not current tech!!! laf
But the real reason for this post is: are you guys saying that a 110V inverter can truly weld 3/8 base. That means it must run 1/8 or 5/16 rod. . Is that right? Am I as far behind as it sounds?
NTL I really like my Lincoln it is as smooth as silk. . As I said before I have a Linciln 225 Buzzbox to weld simple stuff. . I like it a lot also!
This thread is another one of those where the amount of knowledge is worth a lot to us out here. .
Thanks everyone. .
But the real reason for this post is: are you guys saying that a 110V inverter can truly weld 3/8 base. That means it must run 1/8 or 5/16 rod. . Is that right? Am I as far behind as it sounds?
NTL I really like my Lincoln it is as smooth as silk. . As I said before I have a Linciln 225 Buzzbox to weld simple stuff. . I like it a lot also!
This thread is another one of those where the amount of knowledge is worth a lot to us out here. .
Thanks everyone. .
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