Are programmers worth the risk?

[JimB1]

For every 1 owner who clearly understands how to set up and operate engine with downloader/programmer there's 5 who don't, but still experiment.



Horsepower-hours of operation lifespan equation, doesn't change.



Typical senario:



Day 1, open box, take out perfectly good brand new truck.



Day 2, open box, take out programmer, install, have great time.



1 year later, put programmer back in box and invest great amounts of time & money trying to get truck to work as good as day 1, or sell it and be upsidedown on the deal.



For those who claim to know what's what re engine power upgrades, I'll take it on faith that you do, as long as you're not trying to convince anyone the horsepower-hours of operation lifespan equation has improved.



For those of you (me to) still in the learning curve, cost of new engine $10K give or take a bit.



There's an absolute TON of quality free on-line information by which we can educate ourselves and very knowledgeable group members who willingly donate their time to assist.



YMMV.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Not sure if I entirely understand your concern/question - whether it relates to wear and tear on the engine/drivetrain with mods - or the cost effectiveness vs other forms of power enhancement...



I have run an Edge Comp pretty much since my '02 was new - experienced one minor glitch with it, was replaced free by Edge - absolutely NO complaints with the overall quality and wide band of available on-the-fly power levels, especiall as they relate to RV towing in varying terrain. It's easily removed, and likely get a significant percentage of purchase price returned.



Also ran a Smarty for a while - had a few issues with it, especially if run by itself without the Comp switched on (please DO note the other power mods installed on my truck) - using the Comp to allow finer tuning of the Smarty programs helped, but still was not satisfied, and at that point in time, no Smarty upgrades were on the near horizon for 2nd generation trucks, so I sold it without too much loss in cost.



As power is increased, other elements of engine/powertrain issues occur - I had to upgrade my clutch - automatic transmission guys need to upgrade their trannies as well - and that cost is not recoverable down the line if the truck is sold. Similar non-recoverable expenses depend on the final power levels sought - and CAN be substantial, depending on power levels - and are exactly why I have stopped at my current level



Hope that helps some...

 

[JimB1]

Post is meant to encourage objective moment of pause. . , to think through cause-effect of power upgrades for those of us still in the learning curve.

 

[JDiepstra]

For every 1 owner who clearly understands how to set up and operate engine with downloader/programmer there's 5 who don't, but still experiment.



Horsepower-hours of operation lifespan equation, doesn't change.



Typical senario:



Day 1, open box, take out perfectly good brand new truck.



Day 2, open box, take out programmer, install, have great time.



1 year later, put programmer back in box and invest great amounts of time & money trying to get truck to work as good as day 1, or sell it and be upsidedown on the deal.



For those who claim to know what's what re engine power upgrades, I'll take it on faith that you do, as long as you're not trying to convince anyone the horsepower-hours of operation lifespan equation has improved.



For those of you (me to) still in the learning curve, cost of new engine $10K give or take a bit.



There's an absolute TON of quality free on-line information by which we can educate ourselves and very knowledgeable group members who willingly donate their time to assist.



YMMV.

Where has this equation been proven factual?



Some of the changes caused by programmers actaully do make the trucks run better, more efficiently, and "cooler". The stock programming is meant to appease EPA emissions requirements. While programmers may alter the programs outside of the EPA's liking, it doesn't actually mean it is worse for the truck by any means. Example... . slight advances in timing actually increase mpg and decrease EGT.

 

[TimothyLong]

The effect that a tuner/programmer has on an engine greatly depends on what its intended use is for, just like the truck itself. You don't have to have an engine tuner to significantly shorten the lifespan of an engine. Just like JDiepstra pointed out, tuners can actually have a positive effect on your engine over stock. However, if you use your tuner jacked to the max setting all the time so that you can go out and race some kid with a suped up rice burner with a fart can exhaust tip, you can expect to have problems. Same goes for trying show that your truck can pull as much as a big rig. I've had my Banks tuner for a little over year now and I love it! For my purposes, since I don't tow anything and rarely haul what you could classify as a really heavy load, it's all about the fuel economy. Back when diesel was close to $5 per gallon, I was loving the fact that I was averaging 21 - 22 mpg on my commute to work vice the 17 - 18 mpg I got without the tuner. On good days I can get even better mileage. Yes, my tuner gives me all kinds of power but the key getting great mileage with it is actually staying OUT of the throttle. That takes some self discipline. But it sure is nice to know that it is there if/when I need it! For guys who do a lot of towing, campers, livestock, etc, a tuner used correctly will probably extend the life of their engines over stock. Mainly because the added power a tuner gives them means they don't have to run the truck as hard to pull the same amount of weight.



Some tuners are better than others. For anyone thinking about getting one, I'd highly recommend one that you can program/control over getting just a chip. They give you flexibility without being too overwhelming and most of them connect up to your OBD2 port so you can read and clear DTC's with them as well. Banks, Smarty, and Edge seem to be the more popular ones out there. I would absolutely recommend a tuner to anyone. A lot of folks get nervous about the powertrain warranty issue and I really don't blame them. However, if you like your truck and plan on keeping it a while, then hold off on the tuner till you get close to the end of your warranty.



The point I'm trying to make is that tuners aren't evil things and you don't have to make a ton of extra mods to get out of it what you want and still enjoy it. The mods I made were by choice and actually compliment the tuner. They were all engine mods and I still run a stock transmission with no problems at all. In fact, for a lot of shade tree wrenchers like me, half the fun is putting the mods on the engine! The biggest downside that tuners have is that they will void a lot your powertrain warranty. Say your truck happens to drop a valve. Most dealers will blame it on the tuner and won't warranty the parts or labor. On the same token, say your lift pump fails. The dealer has to warrant that because the tuner has no effect on the lift pump. I had 89K on my truck when I installed my tuner and mods. I now have just shy of 100K on my truck and the biggest problem I've had so far was my water pump leaking. That was going to happen whether I had the tuner or not. (For those of you that are curious, I still have my original factory lift pump. I just received my "just in case spare" today from Geno's. )

 

[Bob4x4]

Jim,I would hope that your post will make the newbies think about the long term effects of increased power.

I see too many people jump in and go nuts with power upgrades with out thinking about the what ifs. For those that can afford to do the supporting mods and not expect Dodge to bail them out... ... ... ... go for it. For those that have struggled to save enough for a power enhanser... ... ... maybe those are the ones that should wait it out and do some more soul searching



Bob

 

[JimB1]

Horsepower-hours of operation lifespan equation, in generic terms is commonly refered to as "duty cycle".



Every widgit under the sun has a design use and duty cycle.



Might be stated on front page of specs, welding machines, micro-processor computing speeds, aircraft engine max power at take off time limit (usually not more than two minutes) are several examples.



Exceed these limits with aircraft engines, especially high performance rides, and there's more charts showing how much reliable (less) lifespan remains.



Tho' for 3rd gen engines, the call-out of marginally adjusting factory/EPA timing specs improves engine performance/lifespan is well taken.



The point not so well taken is it's illegal and the codefied penalty protocols could easily equal 30% of the value of your rig.



Please, no flamers, the truth is what it is and please no thread high-jacking re opinions of EPA regs gone bad.



Hopefully this thread will remain a tool for those wanting to learn more about engine upgrades.

 

[Forrest Nearing]

it requires a given amount of power to accelerate at a given rate... if you drive your truck at legal speeds, there's only so much "extra" power over factory capabilities that you can apply!



We've all had way too much experience modifying these trucks to buy this BS... I've been doing it for over a decade, and my old trucks are still driving around w/ 300-400k+ miles on them.



aircraft engines aren't as overdesigned as the Cummins in our trucks. We've got a medium duty engine weighing in at about 1,000lbs in a light duty truck.



Are you an engineer?

 

[JDiepstra]

Horsepower-hours of operation lifespan equation, in generic terms is commonly refered to as "duty cycle".



Every widgit under the sun has a design use and duty cycle.



Might be stated on front page of specs, welding machines, micro-processor computing speeds, aircraft engine max power at take off time limit (usually not more than two minutes) are several examples.



Exceed these limits with aircraft engines, especially high performance rides, and there's more charts showing how much reliable (less) lifespan remains.



Tho' for 3rd gen engines, the call-out of marginally adjusting factory/EPA timing specs improves engine performance/lifespan is well taken.



The point not so well taken is it's illegal and the codefied penalty protocols could easily equal 30% of the value of your rig.



Please, no flamers, the truth is what it is and please no thread high-jacking re opinions of EPA regs gone bad.



Hopefully this thread will remain a tool for those wanting to learn more about engine upgrades.

No flames here...



Thanks for the examples.



Don't care that it's "illegal" for me to use less foreign oil.



Know of anyone fined for running an Edge Juice?

 

[JimB1]

Thru' several years of closely following diesel forums I don't recall but maybe 2 or 3 examples of emmissions fines for altered whatever.



So the "got caught" ratio is clearly less than 1/1000 and more likely 1/10000.



Calling out valid learning info and the facts are my motivations.



By and by I'll have one of the programmers but nice plug of RWHP upgrade can be achieved with built 48re, for me it will be DTT.



Also before programmer will be, PSM air box, AFE PG-7 filter, Cool Blue Hose, GDP airhorn, GDP muffler elimination pipe (keep the CAT), GDP 2 micron fuel filter, Franz oil filter bypass, Guages, are things I'll do, which will give some small amounts of performance improvement and/or longer life expectancy since my rigs are on the "25+ year plan".



As a pensioner, my 401k's have suffered badly so now it's play "hold 'em" until things turn around a bit for big toy money.

 

[ABorgardt]

It is also illegal to alter you exhaust in any way other than factory. Removing a muffler is altering the integrity of the emissions of the vehicle, no matter how you look at it.

ie: The lower EGT's you might get as a result of removing the muffler could result in not having the correct temps for your cat to functioning properly

 

[TimothyLong]

Also before programmer will be, PSM air box, AFE PG-7 filter, Cool Blue Hose, GDP airhorn, GDP muffler elimination pipe (keep the CAT), GDP 2 micron fuel filter, Franz oil filter bypass, Guages, are things I'll do, which will give some small amounts of performance improvement and/or longer life expectancy since my rigs are on the "25+ year plan".



As a pensioner, my 401k's have suffered badly so now it's play "hold 'em" until things turn around a bit for big toy money.

Nice choice of upgrades! Even those should give you a noticeable improvement over stock.



I feel your pain about the 401K. Mine's been tanking too, but then everybody's has. The DOW tanking another 245 points today didn't exactly help either. So who was this bailout supposed to help again?? It certainly isn't us...

 

[meanmatt]

Programmers sound fun with all the promises they make. However I belive that keeping the truck stock and not passing by the max GVW's. is the ticket for maximum life span from the truck . Also doing the correct amount of maintence the truck actually needs . To much you are just throwing money away , to little they you risk a failure.

 

[Regcabguy]

I'm a low horsepower guy who keeps Smarty set at sw#1 and the other Revo settings stock. Just this amount of power enhancement makes this a fun truck to drive. I came out of a 125+ hp enhanced DTT equipped '99 and getting behind the wheel of my '07 was pretty dissappointing. It just may take 25,000 miles off the engine life,but that's my decision. This Cummins will be breathing long after I'm out of here.

 

[Bob4x4]

ie: The lower EGT's you might get as a result of removing the muffler could result in not having the correct temps for your cat to functioning properly

:-laf no



Bob

 

[ABorgardt]

:-laf no



Bob

I know this is not fact, just making a point that no matter what you do to your vehicle you risk violating some law or warranty issue. whether it be exhaust , lift, bigger tires, or a tuner. fact is there is no right or wrong, just the risk to d what you like.

 

[MAllen1]

I would figure the hours of service would be affected by maintenance in whole verses "just computer upgrades". I would also have to say to use common sense on the upgrade. If you install a computer or injectors that would increase h. p. "extremely" (over 50 I would think) without improving such things as exhaust to accomidate the increase, you will probably have lower hours of operation.

 

[MA2LA]

one of the big things you have to look at is the amount of time you are using the extra power. i'd say 85% of the time you are using no more power than it did before you bomb it.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

one of the big things you have to look at is the amount of time you are using the extra power. i'd say 85% of the time you are using no more power than it did before you bomb it.

I'd say that 85% figure is even generous - we RV tow a lot with our '02, mostly in mountainous terrain - and even at that, I doubt we're anywhere near 15% WOT use. Yeah, sure - we do use somewhat higher than OEM power levels on steeper grades, but rarely WOT. Naturally, the full power is there when/if we want or need it - and that's a comfortable feeling. But I'm not much of a hotrod driver, and with Oregon's 55 MPH speed limits, not much motivation to tempt the local Mounties... :-laf



Likewise, the rather low percentage of actual benefit of some of the "cool air" intake systems at anything less than high speed/rpm operation is why I've never seriously considered anything more involved than the BHAF setups - just not nearly enough medium power advantage over the far less expensive BHAF setups to justify the added expense of "pretty sheetmetal"...

 

[JamesStevens]

The muffler is NOT part of the emissions package. You can modify cat back, or dpf back and not affect your emissions.

I try and keep the Smarty set a level 1 with max timing but it is hard!

07 5. 9

James