ATS or DTT converter?

[c-hawk]

John P,



Thanks for the reply. Coastal Plains raceway... cool i've been there. Holly Ridge is real close to where i went to school. Graduated from UNCW a few years ago, (check my user name). I haven't been back since, but I'm trying to change that. Want to get back to the area and visit some friends. (George Elliot hasn't broken both his arms trying to pop any more balloons has he? LMAO)



As for your post, Those are nice times. Did i see that posted over on the DTR a little while ago? If it's what I'm thinking of, you could probably get a little more out of it with a billet output shaft.



I'm going billet here real soon, and also have a BD RAD on the way. I've got major defueling issues as it is right now. Should shave at least a tenth off my 60ft. But so far without the RAD or billet output, my best slip to date is:



60ft------------1. 790

330ft----------5. 360

1/8 E. T. -------8. 367

1/8 MPH------81. 47

1000ft--------10. 982

1/4 E. T. -------13. 206

1/4 MPH------101. 55



This was run with DD2's, Drag Comp and HX40. (setup in my sig)



So how good is DTT's fluid coupling? I ran these times with 80hp injectors and didn't get lock-up till o/d as i never spent the money on any type of controler, nor have i installed a lockup switch of any type.



Matt,



If all your looking for is an awesome improvement, In my opinion you can't go wrong with any of the company's mentioned here. Find the one who seems most willing to custom tailor your transmission to what you want. The arguments come about when we try to decide who's the best of the best in the most extreme uses.



Later,

chris

 

[klaybus]

I had to delete my last post on this trans thread. I wish a person or two would follow my suit. Buy a friggin after-market trans of choice & be happy.

I chose DTT. I'm happy!



Clay

 

[John_P]

c-hawk:



Thanks for your reply as well!!



Glad to hear you are familiar with the area down here.

Yes, you did see us post our times on the DTR site. I

already have the "billet" shafts in the 02' I also have

the "BD RAD Device. " Yes,..... it makes a HUGE difference!!

IMO,... . you HAVE TO HAVE IT on a 24 valve if you intend

to drag race! Believe me,..... mine will defuel BIG TIME

without it too.



FYI, I do not use a "lock-up switch" either. I leave the line

at about 10-12 lbs. of boost. I "set" my ATS Controller to

"lock-up" at about 20 MPH. Then I put the truck in "Drive"

and as soon as the last yellow light comes on I am GONE!!

The truck shifts "locked" from about 2-3rd and then 3rd to

fourth! I do this the same way with my old "tired" 12 valve

that has almost 250,000 miles on it now. With the ATS Stage

IV TripleLok it turns "consistent" 13. 3's at almost 100 MPH.

It weighs about 400 lbs. more than my 02' 24 valve. And,

believe it or not,... ... the 96' still has the stock input and

output shafts with well over fifty (50) drag race "launches"

on it and now over 75,000 hard miles!! Yep,... ... the ATS

Stage IV TripleLok is TOUGH!!!!



---------

John_P

 

[MCummings]

John,



You should be locking up in 3rd. The 2-3 shift locked is hard on parts.



Lots of people pick up some time locking up halfway through 3rd.



What did your times do locking up in 3rd?



Merrick

 

[John_P]

Merrick:



I do shift "locked" into third. And it may be hard on the

internal parts etc. but so far, so good! As I said in my

prior post, the ATS unit in the 96' now has over 75,000

miles on it with stock shafts! To me, it speaks volumes

about how tough the transmission really is!



---------

John_P

 

[Edward]

After reading some of the posts on this thread and many other threads about drag racing I have to wonder what all the fuss is about any brands tight fluid coupling? All of the big horsepower drag racing guys lock up the torque converter. It does not matter if it is brand A, D, G or S all of them lock up to put the power to the ground. When a tenth of a second matters they need to have 100% of the power going to the ground. To get 100% of the power to the ground you have to lock-up. If fluid coupling were the do all and end all in torque converters then why would you need lock-up at all? Now if locking is the answer then why bother with the super tight fluid coupling theory. Why not go with a balance in fluid coupling that would allow the engine to rise to its power band quickly where it can start the truck moving and then lock up. Mercedes Benz is using this approach in their new 7-G transmission. Most drag racers also use this approach. In my opinion a tight fluid coupling TC for the every day driver is nothing more than a heat pump. Picture yourself sitting at a stoplight holding extra pressure on the brake because the TC is so tight that the governor is adding fuel to the engine just to maintain idle rpm. The truck is trying to move but you aren't letting it. The energy the engine is making has to go someplace. What is that energy making instead of forward motion? The answer is HEAT.

I agree with previous statements about doing your homework. There is a good reason why Mercedes Benz is using the lock-up approach and why lock-up is used by drag racers, no matter what brand of TC they own. If I were buying a new torque converter I would find out why.



Edward

 

[Matt400]

Originally posted by Edward

Picture yourself sitting at a stoplight holding extra pressure on the brake because the TC is so tight that the governor is adding fuel to the engine just to maintain idle rpm.

Hey Edward, that is a good point and I am glad you brought it up.

In addition to adding heat it would also waste fuel.

 

[Cooker]

Originally posted by Matt400

Hey Edward, that is a good point and I am glad you brought it up.

In addition to adding heat it would also waste fuel.

Matt,

Personally I think Edward made a mountain out of a mole hill with that statement.



FWIW - I have never had a problem with heat with my DTT 91% torque convertor. I have never seen over 200 degrees in the hot line going tot he cooler.

 

[Cooker]

After reading some of the posts on this thread and many other threads about drag racing I have to wonder what all the fuss is about any brands tight fluid coupling? All of the big horsepower drag racing guys lock up the torque converter. It does not matter if it is brand A, D, G or S all of them lock up to put the power to the ground. When a tenth of a second matters they need to have 100% of the power going to the ground. To get 100% of the power to the ground you have to lock-up. If fluid coupling were the do all and end all in torque converters then why would you need lock-up at all? Now if locking is the answer then why bother with the super tight fluid coupling theory.

Speaking from purely a drag racing point of view.



Why? Becasue you cannot leave the line in lockup nor can most achieve lockup until 2nd gear and as you said tenths of a second matter. A tighter convertor will put more power to the ground.

Why not go with a balance in fluid coupling that would allow the engine to rise to its power band quickly where it can start the truck moving and then lock up. Most drag racers also use this approach.

Most drag racers leave the line with boost. Some over 20PSI of boost. With that info your above statement is moot.

 

[Edward]

Quote from Edward

Why not go with a balance in fluid coupling that would allow the engine to rise to its power band quickly where it can start the truck moving and then lock up. Most drag racers also use this approach.

Originally posted by Cooker

Speaking from purely a drag racing point of view.

Most drag racers leave the line with boost. Some over 20PSI of boost. With that info your above statement is moot.

Cooker

I think Maddog might disagree with your statement above.

Actually most people reading this thread do not drag race and want their truck for everyday use. So any point about leaving the line with 20 psi of boost is moot to them. Most of the people reading this thread want the engine to move to its power band without lugging the engine because the torque converter is to tight. Most people want the boost to come up quickly and a super tight converter works against that in every day driving. So striking that balance is the key. As I stated in a post above about leaving from a dead stop, my ATS setup does great.



Edward

 

[Cooker]

Actually most people reading this thread do not drag race and want their truck for everyday use. So any point about leaving the line with 20 psi of boost is moot to them.

Edward,

You original post was discussing drag racing and I answered that question from a drag racing point of view as I stated.

I think Maddog might disagree with your statement above.

Maddog may disagree but he is also not running a Dodge transmission. The Ford trannies may or may not react differently? I do not know anything about Ford trannies so I am not going to begin to disagree with Maddog's statements, it obviously works for him. I don't know what convertor he is running or how we could compare to a Dodge TC. Maybe it is a tight as a 93% DTT?

As I stated in a post above about leaving from a dead stop, my ATS setup does great.

FWIW - Leaving from a dead stop my DTT does just great too.

 

[c-hawk]

Originally posted by Edward

After reading some of the posts on this thread and many other threads about drag racing I have to wonder what all the fuss is about any brands tight fluid coupling? All of the big horsepower drag racing guys lock up the torque converter. It does not matter if it is brand A, D, G or S all of them lock up to put the power to the ground. When a tenth of a second matters they need to have 100% of the power going to the ground. To get 100% of the power to the ground you have to lock-up. If fluid coupling were the do all and end all in torque converters then why would you need lock-up at all? Now if locking is the answer then why bother with the super tight fluid coupling theory. Why not go with a balance in fluid coupling that would allow the engine to rise to its power band quickly where it can start the truck moving and then lock up. Mercedes Benz is using this approach in their new 7-G transmission. Most drag racers also use this approach. In my opinion a tight fluid coupling TC for the every day driver is nothing more than a heat pump. Picture yourself sitting at a stoplight holding extra pressure on the brake because the TC is so tight that the governor is adding fuel to the engine just to maintain idle rpm. The truck is trying to move but you aren't letting it. The energy the engine is making has to go someplace. What is that energy making instead of forward motion? The answer is HEAT.

I agree with previous statements about doing your homework. There is a good reason why Mercedes Benz is using the lock-up approach and why lock-up is used by drag racers, no matter what brand of TC they own. If I were buying a new torque converter I would find out why.



Edward

Oh man. I'm don't even know if i should take the time to reply to edward, but...



Yes lock-up is more efficient than fluid coupling in drag racing. But as has been said before, you can't always be in lock-up. That's a very simple statement. All the performance transmission's can lock-up, and hold in lock-up. But in the mean time, while your trying to get to the point where you can lock up, better fluid coupling will put more of the power to the ground. This isn't just valuable at the track. It helps when your trying to get a load moving up a hill, trying to pull a heavy wagon accross a field at low speed, or accelerating onto the highway.



Launching with boost, better fluid coupling will put more power to the ground. Edward keeps bringing up maddog, and thinks what maddog is doing is a good example. He is using a ford transmission and doing certain things that no one can do with the dodge transmission. He IS GOING IN TO LOCK-UP AT 4MPH. That is totally different than having a looser converter till your in 2nd or 3rd or whatever. 4mph and 3rd gear is a huge difference, i don't see the similarity your trying to show.



The only time tight fluid coupling makes more heat than loose fluid coupling is when your not moving and your in gear. Sitting at a red light in gear is not going to create anywhere near enough heat to ruin your transmission. Period. Anytime your moving and in fluid coupling, a tighter converter will run cooler than a looser one.



Chris

 

[Bob Wagner]

I've bite my tongue so many times in numb

 

[MCummings]

Don't worry Bob,, We all know when you sit down and do calculation wich company has a better theory behind their TC, and which transmission has a better Value, and which transmission is better re-designed.



Merrick

 

[John_P]

Merrick:



Yeah,... ... ... Bob thinks it's DTT and I think it is ATS!!

As the saying goes; "To each his own!" What I have

observed on the transmission threads of late (on all sites)

is that DTT isn't the "only show in town" anymore!!!

There are many other companies out there now

(including ATS) and that is good for the TDR members

who are looking for "aftermarket" transmissions.

And AGAIN,... ... all the "scare" tactics and B. S. " put

out on this and other sites about ATS's TC and

Transmissions including the issues of "locked"

shifting just doesn't hold up anymore!!!



--------

John_P

 

[Edward]

Originally posted by MCummings

Don't worry Bob,, We all know when you sit down and do calculation wich company has a better theory behind their TC, and which transmission has a better Value, and which transmission is better re-designed.



Merrick

Merrick

You are right lets do the calculations. Sight rules prohibit me from mentioning company names but there is a company down on the sunny coast of Florida that has done their calculations on which theory they believe is superior and they concluded that three lock up discs are better than one. There is another company run by brothers in Iowa, that have also done their calculations and concluded that the theory behind three lock-up discs better fits the needs of their customers than one lock-up disc. There is yet another company in Germany who has engineering capabilities that are world renown and they have rejected the theory of super tight fluid coupling to that of locking up with three discs. The last company’s location is in Wheetridge Colorado and they have been ridiculed for concluding that three lock-up discs are much better than one. I don't think that the companies, which reside at the locations listed above, would purposefully reject the superior method in favor of providing their customers second best. I am not about to say that any of the aftermarket transmissions are junk because they are all way better than stock. But I can sit down and calculate that 3 of the most commonly mentioned transmission companies listed on this sight have chosen the theory of three lock-up discs over one lock-up disc. I can also recognize that the company in Germany is in agreement with those three companies listed above due to the fact that they are utilizing the same theory in their new transmission. When I sit down and do the calculations it comes out to, 4 out of 5 in favor of three lock-up discs.



Edward

 

[Matt400]

Originally posted by Cooker

Matt,

Personally I think Edward made a mountain out of a mole hill with that statement.



FWIW - I have never had a problem with heat with my DTT 91% torque convertor. I have never seen over 200 degrees in the hot line going tot he cooler.

Ok, can't get all that much heat going at a stop... but with a tight converter pulling the engine R's down it stands to reason the engine controls will up the fuel to bring idle speed back in spec then you have one fighting the other.



For a daily driver that condition might be annoying- I can't say cuz I still have a stocker. I have been watching my tach more often and I can say that the stock converter keeps the engine in the meat of the torque range from off idle to just over 1/2 throttle. Past that and the R's get up higher than they probably should for the Cummins while out of lock up.



I still haven't heard "why" a trip-loc is any better other than 3 must be better and some other companies are using it.

If a single disc won't slip for my power levels its hard to justify the added expense of the 3 disc however I am a little concerned that the tight fluid coupling while it is awesome might give me less than desirable drivability from 0 to 5 MPH, you know parking lot maneuvers not stomping the pedal to the floor.

 

[Edward]

Yes lock-up is more efficient than fluid coupling in drag racing.....



Edward keeps bringing up maddog, and thinks what maddog is doing is a good example. He is using a ford transmission and doing certain things that no one can do with the dodge transmission. He IS GOING IN TO LOCK-UP AT 4MPH.

Chris

Chris actually you can do what Maddog is doing with a Dodge transmission. Here is sight where you can get the lock-up controller and a quote from the sight. I would not recommend this product unless you have a multi disc lock-up converter.

www.emjay-eng.com/loun.html

quote taken form www.emjay-eng.com

The Lock-N-LaunchTM Universal provides Wide Open Throttle (WOT) Torque Converter Clutch Lockup for Ford and Dodge pickups. The Lock-N-LaunchTM Universal requires only a Vehicle Speed Sensor signal, a Throttle Position Sensor signal, +12 volts and a transmission/torque converter that can handle the grunt of full lockup adjustable down as low as 5 MPH. You won't believe your 60 foot times!

Edward

 

[MCummings]

If only I could find out some real information about what MY ATS has, then I'd be able to give better accounts about how it works.



If I knew the % of efficiency in fluid coupling, that would help.

If I knew what Pressures it was running at idle, and WOT that would help

If I would know what kind clearances my transmission has, that would help with aftrermarket shafts,,, but,, nobody can tell me. Not the previous owner, and not ATS.



I can find out my pressures. $60 at a transmission shop, and I'm ready to plug in a new gauge.



I've heard rumours that my transmission is a special transmission and has all kiinds of new experimental parts, and I've heard it was ordered with a looser than normal Converter. I've also heard it's just a regualr ATS transmission. Who knows.



Here's what I do know.

15PSI = 2,700RPM at the drag strip

If I leave the truck in "D" I'm in O. D. at 30-35MPH.

I can lock up the converter in 1-4 and "R".

Even though it was a "Full race" transmission, it didn't come with any billet parts.





Now, I realize I'm a rare case. I bought a trauck that was sponsored, and ran hard. It used to be a 5-speed, and was changed to an auto, so I agree somethings are different, but I think the swap was 99% complete (I have the cool "skinny" brake pedal)





Merrick

 

[Matt400]

Originally posted by MCummings

If I leave the truck in "D" I'm in O. D. at 30-35MPH.

What... . Is that some sort of special race truck with ultra low gears?

With standard gearing OD at that speed would mean tires are a smoken or the engine is at idle.