"Banks Brake"

[justme]

Okay, I know that Banks has been "bashed" on this forum and others for poor customer service, but let us discuss their new product, the "Banks Brake" (http://www.bankspower.com/banksbrake.cfm) .



I am in the market for an exhaust brake and had pretty much made my mind up on the BD, followed closely by the Jacobs. I wondering how the new boy on the block hold up. The features look good: 4" BigHead actuator for superior performance, Oversize butterfly valve minimizes backpressure, Spring-loaded valve-centering system reduces friction, Non-corrosive, high-temp valve, shaft and bearings, Dynamic shaft seal keeps out soot. They make some pretty bold claims (http://www.bankspower.com/BanksBrake_CompChart.cfm) also: The Banks engineers made a study of competitors' exhaust brakes, and found they defeat power by adding backpressure when the brake is not in use. Banks Brake is designed to reduce backpressure in the open position, which adds a welcome boost and frees the turbocharger to perform better. Banks Brake not only adds NO restrictions, but actually improves exhaust flow, for a 15-30 horsepower power gain!



I believe that is the only exhaust braking system that has a true 4" outlet and is not necked down to a 3' on these expensive 4' exhaust systems?



What is the general feeling, poor customer service aside, about this product and the comparisons made with other exhaust brakes?



Michael

 

[KatDiesel]

Wheres the retarding hp information at select RPM's. Thats one way to compare the brakes "power".



So they are trying to say you'll gain 15-30 hp on a stock truck by adding their exhaust brake? I find that hard to believe. Would be nice if someone proved or disproved on a dyno.



Whats the cost of the thing by the way? I see that was left out (not by you in particular)... ... ... ... ...

 

[justme]

Update

I just spoke to "Mike" at Banks and he had no information on the brake. They are to be attending a training session on the exhaust brake this week, until then they know nothing. The brake for the CTD has not been released but is "right around the corner" from a release.



Braking HP figures have not been released yet but they promise to send me something once it has all been approved for public review.



The PowerStroke brake is listed at a whopping $1295. 00 clams. Far too expensive for my taste, wallet, and my wife, BD is looking as though they will get my money.

 

[Archive]

Several other companies make a "true" 4" brake. BD is one.

 

[KatDiesel]

Bump

Anyone else got anything to say about this?



What does Banks propose to do with people with autos?

 

[Doc Tinker]

It looks like that system uses compressed air, instead of vacuum. It's an interesting proposal, but the vacuum systems on the other brakes seem to be a fine way to do it. I personally don't care for those baby air compressors, so I wouldn't want one of their brakes unless I had a good air system.



Doc

 

[WeirCummin]

Good ol Banks

Why would Banks put that up on there website before giving there staff any information / trainning on the product. Another good round of customer service !!!

 

[Sixspeed]

Does anyone know how a 4" exhaust brake going into a stock 3" exhaust could gain you 15 to 30 HP. How many extra HP does a 3" exhaust brake into a 4" exhaust produce.

 

[Murle]

Re: Good ol Banks

Originally posted by WeirCummin

Why would Banks put that up on there website before giving there staff any information / trainning on the product. Another good round of customer service !!!

Hummm... Could it be that Banks is still blowing smoke???



A quote from Colin Banks..... "We still make everything in-house and we care about every last one of our customers. To help deal with after the point of sale issues we have added a Technical Department to deal with issues regarding the installation of our product, and a Customer Service Department to deal with issues such as billing or shipping. "



If everything is made in house why don't they have the info on the brake????

 

[Bill Kondolay]

Here is my opinion on this thread for what is worth guys.



It is quite possible for Banks to show 30 + hp compared to the competitors exhaust brake.

Now before I get flamed I want you guys to think about this. Banks also advertises that their products do not void Chrysler’s warranty. This is technically also a true statement.



What you don’t read is that when they were testing their exhaust brake compared to their competitors, the competitors brakes were active while theirs were not. That is why they don’t have any retarding hp figures yet.



Now the mechanics, technicians and consumers out there that know the inner workings of the exhaust brake find Banks claims quite amusing as we know this is a marketing ploy.

While it is technically possible to get 30 more hp out of one exhaust brake compared to another exhaust brake, we know all you have to do is close the butterfly on the brake you want to show the data on that robs the most hp. Voila! there is your proof that theirs makes more hp than the other exhaust brakes on the market.

What a bunch of marketing BS.



Per their advertising, their products don’t void Chrysler’s warranty. Technically this is a true statement that encourage consumers to purchase their products as they feel quite safe being led to belive that Chrylser will warranty their trucks after adding Banks powertrain products.



What the consumer is not taking into consideration is that powertrain mods does not void your radio, power seats , ect warranty making the Banks statement technically true.



Technically speaking the mods do not void your warranty as long as it is not related to the failure. Now you guys know how hard it is to get warranty after doing any kind of mods. The odds of you getting your transmission, tc, engine , transfer case , rear end, covered under warranty after your power mods are slim – 0 .



I have a lot of customers that have Banks products on their trucks and for the most part they are pretty happy with them. I can tell you this however, when they purchased their Banks products they thought their drive train, and power train was still covered under warranty. That is how they interpreted the advertising.



We find that the majority of the diesel owners we encounter are not mechanically inclined, while most are professionals in their chosen fields they trust the vendors.

In my opinion Banks has been doing a good job of violating that trust.



I think that Banks and other vendors are going to learn that you can only mis-lead consumers for so long. In this day and age of the internet, consumers have resources to research their purchases and are relying more and more on experiences by others using the products. While this diesel performance industry vendors have not really had to be accountable for their product claims in the past , times are changing.



So its up to you guys out there, believe what you will, I will stick with Pac Brake, and pass on the advertised extra 30 hp. I wont be one of the marketing victims that actually believe the claims of 30 extra hp.

 

[KatDiesel]

The way it is worded on the website leads one to believe by adding their Brake you'll get 15 to 30hp gain on a stock truck.



Thats what I have a problem with... ... ...



It doesn't say "over other exhaust brakes" or anything of that nature.



Banks Brake is designed to reduce backpressure in the open position, which adds a welcome boost and frees the turbocharger to perform better. Banks Brake not only adds NO restrictions, but actually improves exhaust flow, for a 15-30 horsepower power gain!



Thats what it says to me..... add the brake and gain hp. Wonder if that would fall into or under false advertising?

 

[Bill Kondolay]

Kat,



I stand corrected, i was giving them the benefit of the doubt thinking that they were comparing their brake against their competitors exhaust brakes, after re-reading my post post and the Banks propoganda, i find it more amusing.



It is really difficult to believe that Banks would even make such a statement. Someone in the marketing dept. must have been working OT and had a few too many wobbly pops.



Lots of luck trying to prove false advertising, keep in mind these guys are masters of marketing.



What next, 150% efficient torque converters.

 

[Murle]

Soooo. If I put on two brakes, I can get 60 HP increase. Right???

 

[KatDiesel]

Originally posted by Bill Kondolay

Kat,



I stand corrected, i was giving them the benefit of the doubt thinking that they were comparing their brake against their competitors exhaust brakes, after re-reading my post post and the Banks propoganda, i find it more amusing

Wasn't trying to correct ya or nuthing, that was just how I percieved it when I read it is all. You know how I like to read into... and or beyond charts, graphs, and marketing ploys.



I am still cracking up over "wobbly pops"... ... . must be lack of sleep!





Does anyone else interpret Banks information differently then I do? If you were reading it?

 

[bombero]

Hell with Banks! Get a jacob. Easy to install and works good. Also you can find good discounts

 

[PeterT]

The Banks Brake is a very new product, and I will try to answer the questions that have been raised in this thread in this posting. It is true that the Sales group is to be trained on this product this week, so if you have called asking for details, you may not have gotten all that you were looking for.



When we set about designing the Banks Brake, our first consideration was airflow. Most exhaust brake designs do not consider what is occurring when the brake is non-operational (open). Think about the airflow elements that are present on a stock vehicle. The turbine housing has a casting bolted to it with an internal diameter (I. D. ) starting at 2. 400” and increasing slightly to about 2. 650”. This mates to a 3” diameter turbine outlet pipe. The design of the wastegate exit port contributes to poor exhaust flow by dumping into the turbine outlet exhaust stream at a 90 degree angle, not at all conducive to the rotational airflow leaving the turbine wheel.



Most exhaust brakes use a casting that falls within the same space envelope as this stock casting. The inlet diameter and wastegate airflow problem remain the same, and while the outlet end may be slightly larger, the introduction of a shaft and butterfly become a detriment to flow and may effectively reduce the overall flow cross-section.



The casting for the Banks Brake has an I. D. that starts at 2. 650” and increases to a diameter of 3. 125” where the butterfly is housed, further downstream than other brakes. This necessitates the use of a different turbine outlet pipe, but also allows us to use a 4” pipe instead of a 3”. We are also able to relieve the wastegated flow in a more appropriate fashion by shaping a smooth pocket into the casting. (These measurements are specific to the Brake for the Dodge Cummins. Features are similar on the Ford Power Stroke, but measurements are different. ) The increasing cross section and additional length gives an airflow advantage that is known as “conical diffusion”. Think of a megaphone on the outlet of the turbo. This allows rotational airflow to exit the turbine housing before it hits the brake butterfly. All of this helps to reduce backpressure, improve airflow and is advantageous to the operation of the turbine.



Anytime that exhaust backpressure is relieved, engine efficiency increases (lower pumping losses), exhaust temperatures drop and a small improvement in horsepower may be realized. When the airflow improvement of the Banks Brake is compared to a stock equipped truck, and fuel delivery is matched to the airflow improvement (an apples to apples comparison), horsepower improvements of as much as 15 HP can be found, and up to 30 HP when compared to other brakes (most brakes increase the exhaust back pressure over stock).



This is all considered when the brake is non-operational, or in the open position. Retarding horsepower is a measure of how much stopping power the brake can provide. The only true limitation to retarding horsepower is how much exhaust backpressure the engine can sustain without floating the exhaust valves, thus causing extensive engine damage. In this regard, most brakes are very similar; they all have the same basic limitation. The Banks Brake operates within this limitation and in similar fashion to others, working to achieve the maximum available stopping force when it is operational. The Banks Brake will be upgradeable however to a version called Banks Speed Brake. This is a patented design that allows the operator to set a control speed that he would like to maintain. The position of the exhaust butterfly is then modulated such that the vehicle can maintain the selected speed on a downhill grade. This allows for smoother brake operation and optimizes the function of the brake.



Vacuum for the Brake actuator is supplied by the vacuum pump on the vehicle. There may have been confusion by the fact that the picture of the Power Stroke Brake includes a vacuum pump, which is required for that application. Compressed air is not used on either system.



The price of $1295 that was mentioned is not exactly correct. The version of the Power Stroke brake that mates up to a factory exhaust is $1199 and the version that mates to a Banks exhaust is $1249. Both versions include a turbine outlet pipe and a vacuum pump. The pricing on the Dodge Cummins Brake is not available yet, but should be less than the Ford because the vacuum pump is not necessary.



I will not take the space here to respond to Bill Kondolay’s comments regarding warranty since that is off topic. I have made extensive comments about warranty in other threads on this Forum previously and would be happy to comment in a thread dedicated to that topic. I can also be e-mailed directly at -- email address removed -- if you have specific questions that I can help you with.



Peter Treydte

Director of Technical Communications

Banks Power

 

[KatDiesel]

Originally posted by PeterT

Anytime that exhaust backpressure is relieved, engine efficiency increases (lower pumping losses), exhaust temperatures drop and a small improvement in horsepower may be realized. When the airflow improvement of the Banks Brake is compared to a stock equipped truck, and fuel delivery is matched to the airflow improvement (an apples to apples comparison), horsepower improvements of as much as 15 HP can be found, and up to 30 HP when compared to other brakes (most brakes increase the exhaust back pressure over stock).

Thanks for the response, however I still feel the information on the website is misleading. In your reply here you mention "when compared to other brakes" on the website if I were reading it I would take it as if i added the brake I would gain 15 to 30hp on a stock truck. Please clarify that figure is supposed to be compared to other brakes. If I am not reading this right please feel free to explain... ... ... If I bought the Banks brake, dynoed before and after installation on the same dyno, same day and I gained nuthing... ... . what would be done then? A complete refund?



Just wondering. Like I said if I am reading it wrong please explain it... ... .

 

[BPINE]

When the airflow improvement of the Banks Brake is compared to a stock equipped truck, and fuel delivery is matched to the airflow improvement (an apples to apples comparison)



Do I read this correctly where it says "and fuel delivery is matched to the airflow improvement" does that mean when you buy a Banks brake you increase fueling, how is this done and is it?

 

[Murle]

Hummm..... No response from Banks yet. Wonder why?

 

[SlyBones]

He just responded yesterday.



Looking at the picture on the website, the kit seems to come with a downpipe. Well many here have 4" exhausts turbo back. I want to make sure their brake does not have some screwball mounting that only works with thier pipe. And that pricing will include the brake and kit, less the downpipe.