BD Pressure Loc Question

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I have previously been over on the "175hp
Ram Roars" post.

I recently had a "Pro-Torque" Torque Converter and BD Valve Body installed in my
96' Ram. Since then I have a "flat spot" just
off idle. The new torque converter has a stall speed of 1600. Modifications to the
truck include pump modifications, TST #5
cam plate (280hp/685torque)and exhaust work. Before the modifications to the transmission the "flatspot" was NOT THERE.

My question is this:
"Will the addition of a "BD Pressure Loc"
help get rid of this "flat spot" or maybe
help reduce it somewhat?

Any input you can provide will be greatly
appreciated.

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Red '96 4x4 2500 Auto 3. 54, TST #5, Pump Mods, Banks Exhaust, Prime Loc, Cummins Chrome Kit, Pro-Torque Converter, BD Valve Body, Sendel 16" Alum Wheels w/ 33" BFGs

 

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Hi John, need a few more details before I can answer your question fully. Is the flat spot after the tc has locked up? I hope that your tc is not locking up at that low of an rpm, but I have to ask. Assuming your flat spot is in any gear & without the tc being locked up I would say that you have the usual 1100 rpm stumble thats common with the auto truck pumps. The reason you never felt it before the tc upgrade is that the motor never had to "work" down at that low of an rpm before, it just revved right thru it. A pressure lock will not help you out here, it's designed to up the pressure once the tc has locked up. Do you have this stumble or flat spot if the truck is in park?

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Piers

 

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Piers:

Thank you so much for answering my question!
To cover what you asked me:

The "flat spot" is only there as I take off from idle. Once I get to about 1500-1600RPM
the truck pulls hard! I also do not have the
flat spot when I rev the engine while the
truck is in park. As I roll down the interstates pulling my racing trailer I
no longer have the feel of "slippage" as
I did with the stock torque converter. As
soon as I accelerate the power is right
there!

Piers, in light of the fact that the "BD
Pressure Loc" will not help in this case
do you think that the High Delivery Valves
along with 215 or 370 injectors will?
Also can my P7100 pump be set up to
eliminate any of this "just off idle"
without the High Delivery Valves and/or
the injectors?

Thank you so much for your input!

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Red '96 4x4 2500 Auto 3. 54, TST #5, Pump Mods, Banks Exhaust, Prime Loc, Cummins Chrome Kit, Pro-Torque Converter, BD Valve Body, Sendel 16" Alum Wheels w/ 33" BFGs

 

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Piers:

A follow-up to my previous post.
Sorry I forgot these.

1. ) Do most of the torque converter
manafacturers set these "beefed
up" aftermarket TC's with a stall
speed of around 1600?

2. ) Can you get them to "design and
manafacture" a TC with a higher
stall speed to eliminate the
"flat spot" and if so, at what
RPM would it be eliminated?

 

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Hi John;
Yes tc manufactuers can very the stall of the tc by changing clearances & angles. Also the engine hp will very the stall. But I'm still a little unclear of what you mean when you say you have a "flat spot", is it like a miss or is it a dead spot. Is it there under hard accelleration as well as just rolling on the throttle, do you feel it in all gears?

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Piers

 

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Piers:

Sorry about all the questions. Let me
more fully explain this "flat spot" to
you.

With the truck in "Drive" sitting still
idling at about 800-900 RPM; as I take
my foot off the brake and push down on
the accelerator (all the way to the floor)
the truck will hesitate and then take off.
I guess you could describe it as a "dead spot". However, if I "ease into the
throttle" it feels like a "flat spot,"
no hesitation but the power feels as
though it's not there until the truck
hits about 1500-1600 where it will take
off and pull real well to 2500-2600 RPM.
The "hesitation" under hard acceleration
is ONLY there just when I punch it to the
floor. After it hits that 1500-1600 range
it takes off and pulls good on up to 2500
RPM. When I'm rolling down the road at any
RPM range above 1000 there is no hesitation
or "flat spot. " I have not tried any other
gears other than "Drive" but will do that
tomorrow and get back to you.

Thanks Piers!

 

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I got it now, no miss or stumble, just a flat spot or as us diesel guys say... turbo lag. You can probably remove most of that by adjusting the star wheel in the afc housing. Moving the wheel towards the front of the engine give one less turbo lag. but more smoke upon accelleration. The trick is to adjust it to a happy medium. Have you tried the afc spring kit? It has a longer, softer spring which gives one a finer control over boost verse fuel rate.

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Piers

[This message has been edited by Piers (edited 08-24-2000). ]

 

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Chances are your stall speed is too low for the engine to handle. The TC isnt giving the engine enough time to spool up. The current 1970's technoloagy being used to build low stall converters is to mill the OEM stator.
In doing so , they are also lowering the torque multiplication throughout the RPM band of the Cummins Diesel.
In my opinion in the next 2-3 months this milled stator technology will have become a thing of the past.
While the milled stator technique is highly profitable, is is not very efficient or a pratical solution to help harness the power of the Cummins Diesel engine.
The pump and turbine of the TC are two of the most commonly overlooked components. Most people concentrate their efforts on the stator and the Tc clutch lining.
The pump and turbine curently being used in the Dodge Diesel is nothing more than modified GM components.

 

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Piers:

Thanks for all of your answers to my
questions. By the way..... this morning
I tried using the lower gears to start
out. (1&2)
From a dead stop I punched it to the floor
and the result was the same; as you say,
"turbo lag", however, it did not seem as
bad as it did in "Drive". Second gear felt
the same as "Drive. "

Anyway Piers, again my sincere thanks to
you for all your input. I will try
adjusting the star wheel as you said.

 

[Archive]

TO: Bill Kondolay

Bill:

Thank you for responding to my post. Two
other TDR members told me you are in the
process of developing or have developed
the new TC to work good in these Dodge
Rams. Do you have any idea when the new
TC will be available? Also do you know
how much they will cost?

I would like to have a TC with the take-off
performance of my old stock TC but also
one that "will put the power to the ground"
like this "Pro-Torque" TC does. Maybe that
is too much to ask.

I look forward to hearing from you.
Thanks again.

----------
John_P.



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Red '96 4x4 2500 Auto 3. 54, TST #5, Pump Mods, Banks Exhaust, Prime Loc, Cummins Chrome Kit, Pro-Torque Converter, BD Valve Body, Sendel 16" Alum Wheels w/ 33" BFGs

 

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John, I have a Pro Lock TC and have the same thing happen. I was warned that I would not like the lower stall TC unless I had 4. 11 gears which I do not. Getting started on a hill pulling my 5th wheel is the worst example, pedal down and count to 3 then she spools up and runs great. I think we are actually lugging the Cummins till it spools up. Guess the choice is to gear down or change out the TC back to stock or wait till the next generation TC comes out. Good luck!



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'98 12V 3500 Dually Std Cab, Auto, 3. 54, Banks Stinger Plus, Sun Coast TC. BD valve body, BD Pressureloc





[This message has been edited by Roger Ledbetter (edited 08-24-2000). ]

 

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john, the stall speed is probably just fine, what i mean is 1600 is probably ok for the engine, a while back i posted some info on converters and gave comparisons of 2 different converters, i did not redig my specs out for this post but you can find the other post, i think the stall of the converters were both the same at 1900 behind a certain engine. the difference was one took almost twice as long to reach the stall speed, hence the so called flat spot. we ran into this long long ago doing the first construction trucks units. the complaint of the low stall converter was, I pull out thinking i have enough room before this car comes and rams the side of the DITCH WITCH and the engine seems to have no power, then when it gets to 16-1700 it pulls like crazy, because the coupling is efficient. anyway long ago we eliminated bog of the low stall converter---dont take away the multiplication. i bet if you send it back to pro torq they will adjust if for you, i am sure they know all the tricks. if you like you can send it here and and i will make the adjustment to the converter, i am sure you have a very good converter and all it needs is an adjustment---probably not more than $100. 00 to cut it and calibrate it and weld it together. remember it is not only the stall speed, but how fast do we get to the stall speed.
dave g.

 

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Good post Dave. I'm glad this site is getting more transmission experts on it, us bombers need all the transmission help we can get. I was checking out another angle on the stator, also doing some machining on the back side of the fins trying to improve flow & efficiency. What a difference a little milling on the back side makes, over 700rpm drop between shifts, did 3 stall tests & 4 full power launches all within 10 mins & the trans temp never went over 190 #ad
:

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Piers

 

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OK GUYS IVE HEARD ENOUGH OF THIS!

Let's cut to the chase, milled stator technology for anyone interested in performance, durability , and power transfer died in the 80's.
While i admit milling the stator is extremely profitable it is not efficient.
As Dave pointed out, to cut the converter open and make adjustments it is only worth 100 bucks.

It is not uncommon these days to be able to buy a LOW END milled stator type converters for your street rods between 200 - 300 bucks. Serious performance guys buy the highly efficient power transfer TC's that cost approx $900- 1200 .

In the Diesel Industry a milled stator/low stall converter cost between $600- $1200.

Last time i checked with a machinist it cost the same to mill a stator to create a low stall as it does to mill a stator and create a low end- high stall.
Piers,
A word of caution from a simple transmission man, be careful of promoting and endorsing milled stator technology. It will become apparent to the consumer in the next couple of weeks why the performance industry discarded this methood in the 1980's. This is considered to be the lowest form of achieving power transfer.


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[This message has been edited by Bill Kondolay (edited 08-27-2000). ]

 

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Whoa Bill, had enough of what??? I was referring to rpm drop between shifts, as I remember it was YOU that stated this was the way to check tc efficiancy, not by stall testing. And yes attention hase to be paid to pump & turbine angles & clearances. But there is more than one way to mill the stator, & I wasn't referring to the easy way of just milling it down, I was referring to opening up the windows by milling the vanes on an angle. Not an easy task, ask Larry the machinist that did it. Also no one was putting anything of yours down, I drove in your truck & saw the 750rpm drop between shifts, I'm driving mine on a daily base & I'm seeing all of 750+ rpm drop, quick turbo spool up & thats running an 18. 5 housing not a little 12 like yours. So ease back, be proud of what you've done & lets put an end to this mud slinging bs

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Piers

 

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Apparently attempting to explain the TC FACTS is considered mud slinging. Personal pride at least for me has nothing to do with this. What this is about is the selling of in-efficient TC's to unsuspecting consumers. The customers having their converters installed Monday which converter are they being sold? Is it the one that is dropping 750 RPMS? How about the dealers, which converters are they installing Monday? The one that drops 750 RPM'S. What about the group purchasing guys, which one did they get Piers? the one that dropped 750 RPM'S.
Piers,you knew weeks ago , about the TC problems so i ask you again is it business as usual on Monday or does one tell their customers this is new technology, to bad you bought yours yesterday.

Piers i assure this is not about MY PRIDE!


[This message has been edited by Bill Kondolay (edited 08-28-2000). ]

 

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Bill you've always had a knack for twisting words around. You know what I was referring to about mud slinging & it had nothing to do with explaining how a tc works. I'm not a trans guy, I test them. I was commenting on how a different version was doing. And good companies are always doing product improvment. Cummins has a new head gasket out for the B series, it even covers the ISB, does that mean all the trucks produced from 89 to late 99 should have new head gaskets, does this mean that everybody out there running a BD, Suncoast, Dunright, Protorq, Hughes, Ken Jones, & I'm sure there are others, should run out there remove them from their truck & put in D. T. T. 's tc? You say you want to go on tour & show people how to make simple adjustments on their trans, but it's not a sales trip, come on Bill, people aren't stupid, just say the truth. You talk about reverse engineering, a year & a half ago you couldn't spell Diesel, now it's the first name in your new company & you don't mind asking Sean {our electrical guy} the ins & outs of how the autoloc or torqloc work. You're playing with a double edge sword. I've been staying out of your little battle, but if you want to keep this type of bs going I'll wade in with both feet.

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Piers

[This message has been edited by Piers (edited 08-28-2000). ]

 

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Whoa fellas! Easy there. I hate to see such bitterness between two highly respected people on the board.

Piers,
The research you do with your truck is amazing. We all appreciate it. We wouldn't all have gov. springs, and HX40's and who knows what else without your efforts. Give credit to Bill though. Two months ago no one heard of 750 RPM drops between shifts on a cummins. I don't care if he could spell diesel or even transmission a year ago. He is making some very welcome changes. Do you realize he is still sending you business? He tried to send me to you for some parts. Don't be so threatened.

Bill,
It looks like people are beginning to copy you already. I know that must be irritating. I personally like companies who spend money and time researching and developing new products. When it comes time for my torque convertor I will come to you and not some vendor who tries to copy a product because it is selling like crazy. I'm sure others share my feelings. Continue making innovations in diesel transmission technology. We appreciate it.

I can't believe this thread isn't closed!

-Chris

 

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TO: Roger Ledbetter
goernd

My sincere thanks to both of you for responding to my post. I'm sorry it
has taken me so long to get back to
you.

Roger; when I read your post I sure
felt alot better. I too was told that
there would be a slight delay upon
acceleration but did not realize it
would be that pronounced. Your
description of the "worst example"
(i. e. pedal down, count to 3 then it
spools up and runs great was RIGHT ON!)
After the truck gets going I am very happy
with the performance of the TC. When
I pull my racing trailer I no longer
feel that "slippage" I had with the stock
TC but I do miss the quick take-off. As
you said, I guess the choice is to wait
and see what new TC's come out. I can't
go back to stock because I really need
the assurance of the transmission not slipping
when I pull in the mountains etc.

goerend:

I may take you up on the offer of the adjustment on the TC. I see you are up
in St. Lucas, Ia. Do you mind giving me
an address and phone number?
Thanks for your input.
------------
John_P

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Red '96 4x4 2500 Auto 3. 54, TST #5, Pump Mods, Banks Exhaust, Prime Loc, Cummins Chrome Kit, Pro-Torque Converter, BD Valve Body, Sendel 16" Alum Wheels w/ 33" BFGs

 

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Hi Chris, I appreciate your reply, I don't like this mud slinging bs either, nor did I start it. We are also not copying Bill's tc idea, as he stated, he doesn't mill the stator, I openly said we were. I, nor anyone here at BD has seen Bill's new tc. And we do a lot of testing on different products, one time we were testing different bonding methods of tc clutch lining & put 3 different tc's in my truck inside of 4 days. I was told to go out and destroy the clutch just so we could see what failed first, the lining or the bonding. When Bill & I were working together on trans stuff it was me that told him what us Diesel guys needed was a tc that acted like a factory one up until 1800-2000 rpm's then hung on like a sob after that. I'm glad his tc's are selling good & I wish him all the best in his new business, I just don't like the bs that's been going on along with it. On a side note when BD got into tc's several years ago we welded a ball bearing into the cover to make it harder for guys to see what we were doing, I had a fellow phone me up & rip a strip off of me, complianing that he had wrecked 4 lathe bits getting one of our tc's cut open #ad
Anyway I agree with you enough of this bs lets just all get along & each of us do the best we know how to.

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Piers

[This message has been edited by Piers (edited 08-28-2000). ]