Bio in the COLD ???

[Cattletrkr]

Now that winter has been around for a little while, how's the bio holding up?? Anybody with gelling issues and at what temp and mix%? I've gone back to B2 for the winter, but I'd like to start upping that as soon as I can.

 

[Eco Rednek]

Ive been running some bio all winter. I live at 8300' in colorado. lately we have been low twentites, high teens at night. I have been blending to about b50. Have had no problems with gelling. I ve found that a little kerosene significantly lowers the gel point of bio.

 

[SHobbs]

We had two nights here that dropped into the teens, somewhere around 14-17*. I had B100 in the tank with no problems. I did have it plugged in all night both nights and had no issues with clogging or gelling. Truck fired right up and never missed a beat.

 

[Cattletrkr]

What worries me are the nights at or below 0F and highs in the teens. I'd love to try it, but I don't have time for problems. Anybody else wanna be my guinea pig???

 

[SHobbs]

What worries me are the nights at or below 0F and highs in the teens. I'd love to try it, but I don't have time for problems. Anybody else wanna be my guinea pig???

You can run B20 in weather that cold. Not much difference with such a small mixture and you can put an additive in it. Where I get the B100 there is also B20 at the pump and the owner of the place has already put in an anti gel and Viscon to comply with state emission laws. Check out DFWbiodiesel.com, there is some good info there.

 

[monkfarm]

See Artic express post

 

[Cattletrkr]

Fuel guy showed up today with the B20. He said he kept 110gals. of B100 in the heated part of the shop overnight and mixed it with antigel before delivery. He dumped the bio in my tank first and the topped off with his usual winter blend of whatever it is. That was this morning. About 45mins ago (9:45) I got home and tried to fill up. Judging from the gauge on dash I needed somewheres between 30-35gals. I got to 18 before I gave up. Filter on tank must be plugged. It took all of about 2gals for it to slow down. 17. 9 to 18. 0 took way too long so I quit.



This is not the first time this has happened. Last summer/fall when I was running bio at either B5, B20, or even B40, out of the blue I'd have a plugged filter. No slowing down, just all done plugged up tight. It was always immediately after the tank/barrel was filled, never in the middle of a tank. I even let it sit for a couple days after filling once and no help. The last time I put Diesel 911 in the filter and some in the tank and away it went. I think it's still the same filter on there yet. Maybe tomorrow if I feel like it I'll try that again.



I really don't know if I can blame the bio or the wonderful used tank that I picked up last year. Either way I don't care, I'm still gonna run with bio, one way or another.



Supposed to be a wee bit nippy here this week/end. Oh goody.

 

[monkfarm]

at some point the bio the "fuel guy" delivered was probably exposed to cold weather (and therefore formed crystals that will clog filters). You might end up changing filters (often) Better stock up on filters!! (and carry them with you with a filter wrench)

 

[SHobbs]

I think this all goes back to who is making the bio. I have not any filter issues except for the first two due to the bio cleaning the system. Since then I have been back to my usual 6k filter change. Looks like the manufacturers in the colder climates need to do a better job of storing their fuel. The bio I am running comes from a refiner near Houston and meets all the ASTM specs of #2 so far all is good. My supplier, Bobby at DFWbiodiesel is always watching the fuel he gets and is there if there is ever a problem.

 

[Cattletrkr]

-15*F Yesterday, truck has about an equivalent of B10, about 10gals. of straight #1, plus other fuel to get me to about B10. Truck started/ran fine. Fuel sample on porch don't look so good. Ran pump back thru itself today and it ran w/o plugging, but I'm gonna avoid the barrel at home for a few days.



Oh yeah, I tried "thawing" the filter on the barrel, but ended up replacing it. Everything works fine since. Man did I pick a lousy week to get that stuff in. Didn't get above -13*F yesterday. Today it made it all the way up to 0*F. Warmup to normal starts tomorrow. . er... today.

 

[bulabula]

I found this info on a website a while back (but can't remember the url, but it gave the following general info):

BIO Mix Gel point

B20 2F

B25 5F

B50 10F

B75 19F

B100 30F



My Experiment:

After reading this first post last week, I decided to do a test. I took 3 plastic 8 oz bottles: #1 filled with B100, #2 with B20 mix, #3 with straight #2 Diesel.



I put the bottles out on the deck (mostly shaded area) and checked them in the morning. This morning it was 26F.



Bottle #1 (B100) was gelled completely. It looked like solid white bacon grease. It didn't move even when held upside down.



Bottles #2 and #3 were both clear and bright, and in total liquid form.



Yesterday (Sunday) it was in the low 30's and you could see the white threads of gel forming in the B100; the other two bottles were ok.

As the temps warmed up to the high 30's, the B100 did get some sun; the white threads disappeard and full "liquidity" returned.



I'm hoping I don't get the 5F temps to finish the experiment... ...

 

[SHobbs]

bulabula,



I am curious here, you say that the B100 was gelled completely and would not move. We had two nights here in a row that were between 14-18* and I had no problems at all with B100 at that temp. Truck started right up and ran like a scalded cat. What has me curious is where the B100 came from? Is there something that the different bio refiners to the bio before selling it? Seems that are definitley some differences between the bio refiners.

 

[bulabula]

Good point. Now that you mention it, I've read where this same supplier cuts the B100 stock with 30% kero to ensure it flows in the winters cold weather. I cannot vouch for that claim either way; but the B100 that I used for this "test" was purchased this summer, so it is "pure" Soy B100. I had a 2. 5 gallon jug of it stored in the basement.



I've often wondered the ethical question if B100 laced with 30% kero for anti-gelling purposes is really "B100" and not something like "B70". I know a lot of the local VW TDI'ers use that B100 year round.



When I say gelled: my cold B100 looked like white lard in the container - just like opening up a can of Crisco where you can scoop it out with a spoon.



Thanks for bringing that point up.

 

[SHobbs]

Looks like there is no industry standards as far as refining bio. Sounds like everyone is on their own. If memory serves me correctly I believe B100 has a cloud point of 0* and you said it solidified at 26*. Sounds like wherever that bio came from it still had some residuals in it from the refining process. Maybe it still has alot of glycerin it or something. Guess I will not get my bio from anywhere else.

 

[Cattletrkr]

Looks like there is no industry standards as far as refining bio. Sounds like everyone is on their own. If memory serves me correctly I believe B100 has a cloud point of 0* and you said it solidified at 26*. Sounds like wherever that bio came from it still had some residuals in it from the refining process. Maybe it still has alot of glycerin it or something. Guess I will not get my bio from anywhere else.

Oh yes, there most definently ARE industry standards for Bio. It must still meet whatever the ANSI (or whatever) specs for regular #2. Only difference is cold flow. B100 should indeed be lookin' pretty lard-like by 26*. Cloud point is around 40*F. If you're getting down to around 0*F with B100, it must be anit-gelled with something really kickarse, or it's the same "B100" that's sold local to bulabula.

 

[SHobbs]

Cattletrkr,



Where did you find the cloud point of 40*. DFWbiodiesel.com list the cloud point of B100 at 0* and #2 at -15*. Wonder who has the definitive answer on this.

 

[Cattletrkr]

www.biodiesel.org

Copied from www.biodiesel.org--morespecificallythis.pdf



Biodiesel Cloud Point



Concentration (vol. %) * Degrees F

0--------------------------3

10-------------------------5

20-------------------------7

30-------------------------14

50-------------------------18

10-------------------------32



I've got some B20 outside in a bottle that was very thick and very cloudy last week when it got UP to -13*F last thurs.



-15*F is not realistic for straight #2. If there was a place to get some around here I'd test that too, but I already know it's no good that cold. I wonder if that DWF site is giving temps for fuel WITH antigel.



Here's a pic of the B20 I've got at about 20*F. The red thing behind it is a screwdriver. I put it in there for a reference point. In an hour or so I'll post a pic of the same glass after being in a -5*F freezer.

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And here's the pic after being in the freezer overnight. Sorry, but it took longer to cool than I though it would. Temp inside freezer was -2*F. The B20 is cloudy enough I wouldn't really want to run it if I don't have to. Ignore the bottom half of the mug, that's just frost on the outside. The whispy stuff in the top half is what I consider "cloudy".

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