BIODIESEL becoming more popular

[dhetrick]

After reading articals at detnews on cleaning up diesel fuel to 50ppm sulfer and biodiesel by soybean. www.detnews.com/2002/autosinsider/0209/17/autos-588729.htm

It makes me happy that biodiesel is growing. I figure that with the reconition of biodiesel as a easy to get fuel. Then Chrysler will hopefully start bringing their european diesel powered pt cruiser's, grand cherokee's, and mini vans.

Pt cruiser 2. 2l crd gets 31 city and 50+ highway mpg (from chrysler UK sight)

Truck trend PG 61 OCT 2002 has a nice artical on the grand cherokee 2. 7 crd.

Other nice biodiesel sights. www.biodiesel.org www.michigansoybean.org

 

[fox]

Yes I like the idea also. We have to start reducing the foreign oil use.

I would use it if available but want it refined and priced near the market.

As my wife says, 'don't get him started on the oil wars"

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

One problem with biodiesel right now. It's showing up in my area. I tried it and my truck ran HORRIBLE on it - I lost 2 mpg. I stopped using it. Then at the TDR nationals during the bosch tech seminar the engineer was asked about biodiesel and he said absolutely do not run it in a VP44 equipped truck nor the new common rail system. So if you are driving a '98. 5+ truck make sure you look on the pumps and if you see biodiesel go elsewhere.

 

[athompson]

Just remember that if those MPG figures are from a UK site, that an Imperial gallon is 160 ounces, not 128 ounces. That means that the figures in US MPG would be 25 city, 40+ highway. Still pretty good.



By the way, last summer I took the kids to visit 'me mum' in London. It is amazing how many diesel power vehicles they have on the road. Everything from two seaters to big trucks.



As for reduced power and fuel economy with biodiesel, I'm not entirely surprised. Anyone who has used gasahol (or other oxygenated gas) knows this feeling. All gas is oxygenated here during the winter.

 

[dhetrick]

Originally posted by Steve St. Laurent

One problem with biodiesel right now. It's showing up in my area. I tried it and my truck ran HORRIBLE on it - I lost 2 mpg. I stopped using it. Then at the TDR nationals during the bosch tech seminar the engineer was asked about biodiesel and he said absolutely do not run it in a VP44 equipped truck nor the new common rail system. So if you are driving a '98. 5+ truck make sure you look on the pumps and if you see biodiesel go elsewhere.

That's interesting to here that it caused problems and reduced MPG. I knew alcohol reduced output on a gas motor. Plus caused guming up of fuel sock in the tank. But everything they write about biodiesel sounds like the best thing in the world untill the temperature drops. It cleans, it lubricates better, it provides similar power power output, causes longer engine life ect... The down side is the price is more. Which would be fine for vehicals that that have 15gal tanks or smaller.

My question is, there are different biodiesel. Maybe each plant produces different effects. Does soybean provide a better diesel fuel over other plants. In the detnews.com michigan soybean artical claims he got 2 mpg better. I've read that some manufactures blend the fuel to accept temperatures to 20deg before having problems.

I write in these forms to learn from others.

 

[dhetrick]

Originally posted by athompson

Just remember that if those MPG figures are from a UK site, that an Imperial gallon is 160 ounces, not 128 ounces. That means that the figures in US MPG would be 25 city, 40+ highway. Still pretty good.



By the way, last summer I took the kids to visit 'me mum' in London. It is amazing how many diesel power vehicles they have on the road. Everything from two seaters to big trucks.



As for reduced power and fuel economy with biodiesel, I'm not entirely surprised. Anyone who has used gasahol (or other oxygenated gas) knows this feeling. All gas is oxygenated here during the winter.

Thanks. I wasn't aware that there was a difference. I knew the USA took measurements from the UK. I just thought the MPG would have been the same.

Do they also have the same hp and ft lb torque rating as the US?

The UK is the only european country, I feel, that is easy to compair cars with. Do to units of measure.



Is there anyone else out there using biodiesel. What are your experiances. Do you run B20 or 100%?

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

The stuff up here was soybean bio. The main point I was making is that Bosch said DO NOT RUN biodiesel in a VP44 (98. 5-02) or the new common rail (03) trucks. They said it will cause damage to the injection pump.

 

[athompson]

The HP and ft-lb measurements should be consistent with ours. Just remeber that those figures are always marketing hype anyway.



The UK is a conflicted country. The EU requires all merchandise (including petrol and diesel) to be sold in metric measures (in fact, merchants have been fined for selling cheese by the pound in other EU counties). They buy fuel in liters and the distances are still measured in miles. My stepdad converts his miles per liter to MPG (imperial) so he knows what his "real" fuel economy is.

 

[dhetrick]

Originally posted by Steve St. Laurent

The stuff up here was soybean bio. The main point I was making is that Bosch said DO NOT RUN biodiesel in a VP44 (98. 5-02) or the new common rail (03) trucks. They said it will cause damage to the injection pump.

Maybe they have seals in the pump and lines that are not biodiesel freindly.

 

[lschultz]

Over on Freds TDI there a lot of them fellows running bio diesel in the VW TDI. Said its cleaning up the intake manifold. The VW has the ERG valve. I think they do lose a little mpg.

 

[TomGolden]

Originally posted by Steve St. Laurent

The stuff up here was soybean bio. The main point I was making is that Bosch said DO NOT RUN biodiesel in a VP44 (98. 5-02) or the new common rail (03) trucks. They said it will cause damage to the injection pump.

Hey Steve, did the Bosch folks indicate if they meant don't run 100% biodiesel, don't run >50% biodiesel, or absolutely NONE at all? A fellow TDR member I met at a diesel rally a few months back said he buys the soybean oil in 5 gallon jugs at Costco and uses ~1 gallon or so of soy oil in every tank full of regular #2. I was thinking of doing the same, as I have heard that soy bean oil is supposedly very high in lubricity, which I would have thought would be good for the LP & VP44 pumps... ... ... .



Tom

 

[Diesel Freak]

I would love to use B-20 here, but it is spendy! B-100 at a place here in Hillsboro is over $2/gallon.



Bio-diesel is a great idea..... not only does it reduce our dependance on foreign oil, it gives our farmers a cash crop to grow, and it is a closed loop..... this means that the plants use CO2 to grow... we burn Bio-diesel and make CO2... . the plants use the CO2... etc. etc. etc.



I think Bosch is full of it about Bio-diesel harming the VP44..... if you are worried about this... . do an experiment..... dump in a gallon of cooking oil into the tank at your next fillup.

 

[dhetrick]

I'd say get with the manufacture to see if it is compatable. Some rubber or synthetic rubber - O rings & lines are compatible only for certain applications. There is a web sight that sells compatible hoses and other items for biodiesel. I found it while looking at VW diesel pickup web sight.

If you have to test it for yourself. Find a junk part. Disassemble it. Soak the gasket in biodiesel for a week. Does it become softer. If so, it could fail over time. I do not think B20 would have the same effect as 100%.

Personally I'd heed his warning and look into compatible pumps and lines. It might not fail for awhile. But over time. It will fail prematurely.

As for the biodiesel reports. I'm just trying to relay a cleaner alternitive. If it's better on a diesel motor than alcohol is to a gas motor. I think it's worth looking into. They say it cleans and lubricates. My friend with his 2000 VW jetta turbo diesel already had to take his motor apart to clean the upper end do to running regular diesel. (he's moved away, so I can not use him as a experiment) From what I read, B20 will keep this from happening.

If people notice a drop in power with 100%. Is there any noticeable drop with B20? As for it being more expensive. Is it any worse than compairing 87oct to 93 oct.

 

[illflem]

Biofuel and lube oil are a great idea and use of excess farm products but can only provide a small fraction of our dependence on foreign oil unless we all stop eating bread. The US consumes over 2 billion gallons of engine oil per year, there is barely enough surplus to meet this need alone. Another factor in the equation is that the US loses on average 14,000 acres per day of farm land to urbanization. After all we can't eat oil, don't get your hopes up to see widespread use of biofuel.



BTW, my bias should go the other way since a portion of my salary is paid by the Montana Canola Growers Assn. We are doing canola lube oil research on a grant from them. Currently have two diesel JD tractors and twelve stationary Kubota diesels that have been using canola motor oil for over a year with excellent results on 400 hr (= appox. 20k mile) oil changes. The oil may be available commercially in a couple years, problem is it can't be API certified, they only certify petroleum products.

 

[Blakers]

Some info on biodiesel

Here's some information on biodiesel to clear things up...



Biodiesel is not just soybean oil or any other vegatable/animal oil. It is split - meaning it has the glycerin part split off - leaving a fatty acid. The splitting is done either with very hot steam and water (500+ deg F) or with methanal and a catylist.



Biodiesel can be made from soybean oil or other vegatable oils or even beaf tallow or lard. I've read the best, most efficient thing to make it out of is algae, which can be grown in special ponds near power plants that can use the CO2 exhaust from the plants to promote growth. The oil can be removed from the algae with a centrifuge and then processed as above.



Typically 100% biodiesel has 7% less BTU that petroleum diesel, so you'll have a little less power and mileage.



Blake

 

[dhetrick]

Originally posted by illflem

Biofuel and lube oil are a great idea and use of excess farm products but can only provide a small fraction of our dependence on foreign oil unless we all stop eating bread. The US consumes over 2 billion gallons of engine oil per year, there is barely enough surplus to meet this need alone. Another factor in the equation is that the US loses on average 14,000 acres per day of farm land to urbanization. After all we can't eat oil, don't get your hopes up to see widespread use of biofuel.



BTW, a portion of my salary is paid by the Montana Canola Growers Assn. We are doing canola lube oil research on a grant from them. Currently have two diesel JD tractors and twelve stationary Kubota diesels that have been using canola motor oil for over a year with excellent results on 400 hr (= appox. 20k mile) oil changes. The oil may be available commercially in a couple years, problem is it can't be API certified, they only certify petroleum products.

I'm happy if B20 is used. I'm really happy if congress gets the oil manufactures to lower the sulfer content to what europe offers at 50ppm. As in the detnews.com Rep dingell and Rep billy Tauzin artical points out. As a private individual. I can asorb the rise in price. But I also worry about the trucker that can not asorb the price. He will run the cheapest thing out there just to make his budget. Personally I do not think Biodiesel will be very big. Just like diesel motors in cars are not too big in the US. If nothing else. Maybe our state, county vehicals fleets can clean up a little. School buses, transit buses, ect...

As for farmers. Some farmers do not know what to grow. What will give them a good return. Some farmers out here that use to grow vegetables. Now grow grass for new yards. Then they put driving ranges on it for additional income. One farm caters to the businesses for summer picknic family fun. With the blow up kid activity climbing walls and obstacle coarses. Also to car shows. Anything to bring money in. I'm just saying that If there is a way to keep some struggliing farmer to change his luck and grow a plant for fuel. Maybe his income would be more stable. Just maybe.

 

[Blakers]

Originally posted by dhetrick

I'm happy if B20 is used. I'm really happy if congress gets the oil manufactures to lower the sulfer content to what europe offers at 50ppm. As in the detnews.com Rep dingell and Rep billy Tauzin artical points out. As a private individual. I can asorb the rise in price

I too would like to see us become energy independent and to burn fuels more cleanly



... but not through government regulations. Technological advancements come from free enterprise, not through government dictations.



Blake

 

[RustyJC]

Originally posted by Steve St. Laurent

The stuff up here was soybean bio. The main point I was making is that Bosch said DO NOT RUN biodiesel in a VP44 (98. 5-02) or the new common rail (03) trucks. They said it will cause damage to the injection pump.

Steve,



I'm still a'scratchin mah head on this one.



If the Bosch VP44 is used in European diesel applications other than Cummins (and I believe it is), and if the European variants of the ISB-E have been running in Europe with the Bosch common rail FI system for some time (and I believe they have), one would certainly think that Bosch should have some biodiesel experience from the European market, wouldn't you?



I'm struggling to believe that Bosch has really been caught "behind the curve" on this biodiesel issue, but I suppose stranger things have happened.



Rusty