For anybody that says " we have plenty of food , nothing to worry about" should of seen the two hour special I saw about two months ago that Willie Nelson made that was on TV one Sunday after noon . The America farmers are barely( if not) getting buy now on profits they make from growing food . More and more farmers are going under ever year or their children do not want to take over the farm not to mention all the farm land in this country be subdivided into home land . There was a article in the Houston Chronicle a few months back that said Texas lost 1. 5 or 1. 7 million(cant remember exact number) acres of farm land from 1992 though 1997 . A lot of the food the people in the US eats now is imported. Me and my Dad use to be in the hay bailing business and d@m near all of the fields that we use to bail now has one or more homes on them or have been turn into subdivisions .
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Biodiesel-- would you run it if it proven was safe for the CTD?
- Thread starter Hohn
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Gary
I think the over population thing has been blown out of proportion. I read a very good article on this a while back but couldn't find it, it basically said what these watered down versions say.
http://www.knowledgeservices.com.au/Summit/280102.htm
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/08/0806_population.html
http://www.aboutsudan.com/issues/population/growth_rate_plunges.htm
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/DailyNews/worldpopulation010801.html
Jared
I think the over population thing has been blown out of proportion. I read a very good article on this a while back but couldn't find it, it basically said what these watered down versions say.
http://www.knowledgeservices.com.au/Summit/280102.htm
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/08/0806_population.html
http://www.aboutsudan.com/issues/population/growth_rate_plunges.htm
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/DailyNews/worldpopulation010801.html
Jared
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A good article on do it yourself Bio-Diesel. Looks like a PITA to me unless fuel gets a lot higher than it is now. What about running straight veggie oil?
http://www.homepower.com/
http://www.homepower.com/
Another advantage to biodiesel is that its flashpoint is >300 degrees F. Petroleum diesel has a flashpoint of ~125 degrees F. Therefore, biodiesel is much less flammable than petroleum diesel.
A disadvantage is that the energy density of biodiesel is less than petroleum diesel, roughly the same as gasoline.
A disadvantage is that the energy density of biodiesel is less than petroleum diesel, roughly the same as gasoline.
Originally posted by Gary - KJ6Q
"And for those who are now saying "we have PLENTY of food, nothing to worry about", just remember, it hasn't been too long ago we were saying the SAME THING about crude oil!
Well, then someone prove to me that we DON'T have enough crude oil! Never mind the difficulty of proving a negative. Fact is, we have enough for quite a while if greenies would let us get to it. Twenty years ago we were all told that "there are only 30 years of oil reserves left in the world!" Here we are twenty years later, and what are they telling us? Right, "there are only 30 years of oil reserves left". Whatever. As long as there is a demand for oil, there will be people finding it, and finding better ways to get to it. Assuming, of course, that there is oil to be found. I would imagine that the oceans are VERY large places, and it's pretty likely that beneath them is more oil than we could ever use-- but drilling through 6 miles of water isn't easy.
Don't get me wrong here. I don't believe in waste. I believe that when God put Adam in charge of managing the earth, He gave him a big responsibility. I believe that the Earth was created first, for the glory of God, second for our use of its resources. In that sense, I believe in conserving what God gave us, since we are charged with using it wisely. It's called stewardship.
That said, there is an awful lot of Chicken Little in the US. The Sky is Falling! The Sky is Falling! I Must go Tell the King! Only, today, it is more like: Pollution is Everywhere! The Icecaps are melting! We are running out of oil! Republicans want to steal your Social Security! The point is clear: why live in fear??
As for farming, Illflem, I know that the American farmer is coming upon tough times. I lament that mostly because the values that made this country so great are based in large part on the work ethic of the American Farmer. From its founding, the US has been a nation of farmers.
But progress marches on. If you will pardon a bad pun, we have outgrown our farming. It's simple progress. As our society becomes more advanced, we can buy things that we previously had to make ourselves. Most of us buy our food at the store-- we don't have to provide all our own food. We have that luxury because we have prospered. Similarly, it's common when we become wealthy to hire people to do things for us: cleaning, laundry, mowing the yard, etc. We don't knit our own blankets anymore or sew our own clothes-- we buy them. The modern American is SO prosperous, that we have more leisure time than any other major society has ever had in the history of the world. We have time to post to the TDR board, watch TV, wrench on our trucks. A lot of us who are very busy are working hard not because we HAVE to in order to have our basic needs for food and shelter met, but because we WANT to in order to have a higher quality of life with more luxuries.
As we become more prosperous, our basic needs of food and shelter become further and further away from our worries. We relegate this things to less prosperous people. This is part of how we "climb the ladder" of living the American dream. Right now, many Hispanic Americans are climbing that ladder. in many places I have lived, Hispanics are the dominant group doing work like construction and harvesting (picking lettuce, strawberries, etc). Who does a lot of the landscaping work where you live? Hispanics? Housekeepers? Hispanics? Ever notice this? Why do they dominate so many aspects of American labor? It's because they don't view some things as being beneath them. They will work hard all day for little money doing work many of us might consider menial. But they do it. Why do so many rural Hispanics have large families? Well, maybe we should ask why so many white rural Americans ALSO had large families 100 years ago. Simple, more kids= more labor= more productivity. Many White Americans are in a similar place as their Hispanic brethren are.
The day will come when white Americans will be a minority. Why? Because of our prosperity. We advance to a certain point, then we enjoy all our luxuries. How many white folks do you know have more kids than their parents did? It's not a function of being white, but of being prosperous. When we get rich, we don't have 30 kids, instead we spend money on ourselves. We take vacations, and buy boats and RVs. And we don't worry about food when we do.
In short, the American farmer will soon be a memory of things past, a symbolic foundation upon which the greatest nation ever was built. It pains me to say that, but I think it is true. We are transitioning from an economy of goods (producing THINGS) to an economy of services (things we do for others). I don't want to think about what happens when we REALLY need some food, but we have run all our farmers out of business. I guess that's where we trust the beauty of capitalism: wherever there is a need (a market) there will be someone who will provide that need for money.
Sorry-- I felt I needed to share some things that I believe a lot of people forget about.
HOHN
That the American farmer will soon be a memory of things past will never happen. Fortunately there are enough people in government that realize that depending on imported food is setting yourself up for disaster. Many forget the whole subsidy system's original intention was to make sure the American farm stays in business. Folks think it's bad that we depend on foreign oil whose price skyrockets just because of hints of a war that is predicted to last ten days, just think if it was foreign food we depended on instead. Europe already learned this lesson the hard way. Sure the face of agriculture will change but it isn't going away.
Labor intensive nonessential crops like strawberries will shift to third world countries but crops like soybeans where one guy can easily grow 5000 acres are here to stay. Trend in agriculture right now is to lower the labor input by mechanization = good old American know-how.
Labor intensive nonessential crops like strawberries will shift to third world countries but crops like soybeans where one guy can easily grow 5000 acres are here to stay. Trend in agriculture right now is to lower the labor input by mechanization = good old American know-how.
Illflem, you are right.
I didn't mean that we won't have farmers anymore. What I meant is that we won't unless we artificially preserve that capability. We can't afford to lose that ability, as you point out. I meant that the natural course of things would cause us to have far too few farmers unless we did something.
I was trying to shorten my way-too-long post because to me subsidies are a whole other area of discussion. Everything's so interrelated that it's hard to know what to include.
BTW-- we do the same with defense contractors. Every once in a while we buy a new ship, tank, or airplane we don't technically need because we need those major companies to stay in business-- we would be seriously SOL if companies like Boeing, Raytheon, GE, Lockheed, etc just closed their doors and went away.
jlh
I didn't mean that we won't have farmers anymore. What I meant is that we won't unless we artificially preserve that capability. We can't afford to lose that ability, as you point out. I meant that the natural course of things would cause us to have far too few farmers unless we did something.
I was trying to shorten my way-too-long post because to me subsidies are a whole other area of discussion. Everything's so interrelated that it's hard to know what to include.
BTW-- we do the same with defense contractors. Every once in a while we buy a new ship, tank, or airplane we don't technically need because we need those major companies to stay in business-- we would be seriously SOL if companies like Boeing, Raytheon, GE, Lockheed, etc just closed their doors and went away.
jlh
Not entirely true. Gulf depended entirely on Venesualian oil. Since they had obligations to meet, they ended up buying on the open market. I'm sure it cost them plenty, and it really ran the price up on the consumer. I'm sure this ran the price up at least as much, if not more then rumors of war.
I agree that we need to be self sufficient. With food, industry, fossil fuel (or whatever type of fuel will be next) in fact I think we should be burning coal, or at least actively persuing it's use as a liquid petrolium fuel alternative.
Eric
PS, Hohn I'm an ex defense contractor. Worked for E-Systems.
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"A bushel of soybeans yields about 1. 5 gallons of biodiesel, average yields are 55-65 b/acre = about 90 g/acre. . "
I think it's a good idea to sorta drive the point home to a few non\ag types as to what the above means in real life... That same 1 acre that with 2 crops a year, will maybe fill yer truck tank a half-dozen times in a year, would, if used to grow wheat, corn or rice, probably FEED several families for a year!
I'm sure Bill can give us a better accounting of corn/wheat/rice yield averages, but there's a SIGNIFICANT difference between the potential FOOD value in an acre of land vs fuel value - and there's useful byproducts from corn, wheat and rice, just as there is in soybeans...
Some get sorta cavalier about the "renewable" nature of ag-produced fuels - but the cost in LAND, is pretty stiff as opposed to other crop potentials. We may be VERY abundant in grains grown in a GOOD year with lots of rain in the plains states - but that can change drastically with a very few dry years...
When you start considering that it might take as much as 10 acres of land to operate *ONE* vehicle, and then multiply THAT by the number of vehicles operating our streets and hiways, it's pretty staggering...
I think it's a good idea to sorta drive the point home to a few non\ag types as to what the above means in real life... That same 1 acre that with 2 crops a year, will maybe fill yer truck tank a half-dozen times in a year, would, if used to grow wheat, corn or rice, probably FEED several families for a year!
I'm sure Bill can give us a better accounting of corn/wheat/rice yield averages, but there's a SIGNIFICANT difference between the potential FOOD value in an acre of land vs fuel value - and there's useful byproducts from corn, wheat and rice, just as there is in soybeans...
Some get sorta cavalier about the "renewable" nature of ag-produced fuels - but the cost in LAND, is pretty stiff as opposed to other crop potentials. We may be VERY abundant in grains grown in a GOOD year with lots of rain in the plains states - but that can change drastically with a very few dry years...
When you start considering that it might take as much as 10 acres of land to operate *ONE* vehicle, and then multiply THAT by the number of vehicles operating our streets and hiways, it's pretty staggering...
Gary, you're right, there isn't enough farmable land in the US to supply even our 3 billion ga/year motor oil needs without cutting into the food supply but there is enough farmland that isn't presently turning a profit to supply about 3% of the diesel needs. This is at current technology levels which will change. That's why we'll never be running 100% biodiesel. But just running a 1% blend is better from the lubricity and air pollution standpoint even if it cuts into your mpgs. Like I said soy oil is presently in over supply keeping it's price down because it's an unwanted byproduct, might as well increase it's value by using it as a fuel.
Stabilizing the price of soybeans by the added value of the oil will have a trickle down effect by lowering the amount of subsides required (tax dollars!) and creating jobs in biodiesel industry. The ethanol industry currently employs over 40,000 people (100k projected by '05) and adds over 1 billion value added dollars to the farm economy, no reason the biodiesel industry couldn't do the same.
Stabilizing the price of soybeans by the added value of the oil will have a trickle down effect by lowering the amount of subsides required (tax dollars!) and creating jobs in biodiesel industry. The ethanol industry currently employs over 40,000 people (100k projected by '05) and adds over 1 billion value added dollars to the farm economy, no reason the biodiesel industry couldn't do the same.
Illflem,
I thought the diesel was originally designed with the intent to run on coal dust? I know Rudolph experimented with gasoline (big boom) for awhile before ending with fuel oil, but I'd always heard the original design was to use the excess coal dust from the refining process. Guess you learn something new everyday huh?
-Adam
I thought the diesel was originally designed with the intent to run on coal dust? I know Rudolph experimented with gasoline (big boom) for awhile before ending with fuel oil, but I'd always heard the original design was to use the excess coal dust from the refining process. Guess you learn something new everyday huh?
-Adam
Dave i am very interested in hearing you views on the subject as a farmer. I have been trying to with hold my opinions on the subject as I have watched what I believe to be blatently wrong information go by, as i have little vested interest in this subject. I would love to hear your views as a person very much tied to the issues at hand.
Thanks
Ted
Thanks
Ted
I'm sure this could become a very touchy and hot subject - but fuel problems are a serious issue around the world - and there's a great deal to be discussed and perhaps debated on fuel sources - regardless of whether it comes from above, or below the ground.
Nor does it revolve entirely around $$$ - after all, if all that was really important to farmers in general was the money, they'd all probably be growing cocaine... All the farmers I have dealt with thru the years have been of exceptional morality and conscience - basically attempting to be good managers and stewards of the land they are responsible for.
But there's something seriously WRONG in a situation that sees many in the farm states BURNING corn for fuel to heat their homes because it's CHEAPER than the price of electricity, fuel oils or other heating agents - while many in the world go to bed hungery every night, and many are dying of hunger!
There, THAT oughta get things rolling!
Nor does it revolve entirely around $$$ - after all, if all that was really important to farmers in general was the money, they'd all probably be growing cocaine... All the farmers I have dealt with thru the years have been of exceptional morality and conscience - basically attempting to be good managers and stewards of the land they are responsible for.
But there's something seriously WRONG in a situation that sees many in the farm states BURNING corn for fuel to heat their homes because it's CHEAPER than the price of electricity, fuel oils or other heating agents - while many in the world go to bed hungery every night, and many are dying of hunger!
There, THAT oughta get things rolling!
Blending is the key not running the whole year on just veggie oil. If it will help this country I will fill up today. If it will decrease our dependency on the freakin jack@#$ in the middle east then i am ready to run bio. will the decrease in mpg with the bio offset the advantage of using less middle east oil? i think it will. i am ready for blended for bio fuel to take off b/c that means they will plant more soy and corn instead of cotton... . this is good for my deer 
off course you now who is against bio, big oil. it is hard to beat their lobbying dollars.
I am going to write my congressman to get him on the bio side!
off course you now who is against bio, big oil. it is hard to beat their lobbying dollars.
I am going to write my congressman to get him on the bio side!
I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE !!!!
- after all, if all that was really important to farmers in general was the money, they'd all probably be growing cocaine... All the farmers I have dealt with thru the years have been of exceptional morality and conscience - basically attempting to be good managers and stewards of the land they are responsible for.
But there's something seriously WRONG in a situation that sees many in the farm states BURNING corn for fuel to heat their homes because it's CHEAPER than the price of electricity, fuel oils or other heating agents - while many in the world go to bed hungery every night, and many are dying of hunger!
There, THAT oughta get things rolling!
Cocaine????I thought that was ILLEGAL... .
Starving people?True,but we choose to help other countries WAY too much ,(feeding people who HATE us)while there are starving people here.
I will GLADLY burn 100% bio-diesel when the time comes,and maybe the FARMER can advance up to the STANDARD OF LIVING previous posts indicated !!!!!!!!!
I'm sure the lowly FARMER would welcome HIGHER PRICES for his products considering his expenses (fuel,seed,fertilizer,etc,etc,etc,etc... . )go up EVERY YEAR!!!!!!!!
#@$%! #@$%! :-{}
p. s. That definately GOT ME ROLLING !!!!!!!!!
- after all, if all that was really important to farmers in general was the money, they'd all probably be growing cocaine... All the farmers I have dealt with thru the years have been of exceptional morality and conscience - basically attempting to be good managers and stewards of the land they are responsible for.
But there's something seriously WRONG in a situation that sees many in the farm states BURNING corn for fuel to heat their homes because it's CHEAPER than the price of electricity, fuel oils or other heating agents - while many in the world go to bed hungery every night, and many are dying of hunger!
There, THAT oughta get things rolling!
Cocaine????I thought that was ILLEGAL... .
Starving people?True,but we choose to help other countries WAY too much ,(feeding people who HATE us)while there are starving people here.
I will GLADLY burn 100% bio-diesel when the time comes,and maybe the FARMER can advance up to the STANDARD OF LIVING previous posts indicated !!!!!!!!!
I'm sure the lowly FARMER would welcome HIGHER PRICES for his products considering his expenses (fuel,seed,fertilizer,etc,etc,etc,etc... . )go up EVERY YEAR!!!!!!!!
#@$%! #@$%! :-{} p. s. That definately GOT ME ROLLING !!!!!!!!!
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