blending----DSE vs. WVO System III

[ISBPilot]

From what I have read so far I am interested in "blending" instead of making bio using any chemicals. Now my question is which system to go with and what problems to avoid ahead of time. I am in Central Louisiana so it is a pretty warm and humid climate. Hopefully this will help with any gelling or waxing problems.



Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated along with any pros or cons about the two systems mentioned above. Thanks!



Todd

 

[67guzzler]

I'm strongly considering COMBINING them.



The DSE is nothing more than a plan to build a contraption, suggested blend ratios and an additive.



The WVO System III is a contraption that will separate water, filter out gunk and then supposidly remove up to 85% of the glycerin in the oil without using methanol and lye. It's essentially an extension of blending.



By combining the two my theory is that you can get the best of both worlds.



I've already ordered my startup kit for the DSE additive.

 

[ISBPilot]

Jay,



Thanks for the reply. That sounds like a good plan, I am on the verge of heading that way myself. Just still on the fence about concerns of any damage to the motor. I am not in situation to risk any downtime.



The 15% of glycerin that is still in the oil, is that enough to cause any waxing problems over time? How much extra filtration would reduce that down to say 5%?



Thanks for any info.



Todd

 

[67guzzler]

Todd,



Regarding the glycerin -- First of all you have to decide if you believe them when they say they remove 85% of the glycerin molecules. You can't actually filter them out. They claim the dual pole resin seems to make them bond to the glycerin molecules and removes them that way.



My understanding is that true biodiesel is made via transesterification whereby via a chemical reaction (created by mixing lye w/methanol and then mixing the oil and then letting it settle) they exhange the glycerin molecules with the methanol. It's not easy to remove the glycerin molecules and plain filters don't do it.



That's why this WVO System III, if it really does it, is a pretty cool thing.



Glycerin itself isn't bad if you can make everything viscous enough (the reason the guys who run straight VO have fuel heaters and seperate tanks) because you can burn glycerin (which isn't wax) the same way you can burn the parafins (wax) found in #2 diesel. The issue is getting the fuel viscous enough so it doesn't coak the injectors or cause other problems and the spray pattern in the injectors is the same or similar enought to #2 diesel.



In my strategy -- that's where the DSE additive comes in. I'm going to run this mixture through the WVO System III and then use the DSE additive to help ensure a complete burn of whatever residual molecules are left over. I'm hoping that will add extra insurance.



I hope this helps. I can't guarantee anything I say will result in 100% success.



Good luck!

 

[Cummnzpowr]

Vp-44

JGann: What do you think about mixing 50/50 SVO with #2 on a vp-44 powered truck?what about the lift pump system?Is straight Vegatable Oil too Viscous for these pumps?

 

[67guzzler]

I don't think the 50% of #2 is enough to make the fuel thin enough.



Some system like the WVO System II, if it does what it claims it does and removes 85% of the glycerin might be ok for 50/50 blend of the two.



The other alternative would be to blend in Kerosine or RUG (Regular Unleaded Gas) or both as they will help keep the injectors from coking and clogging. A common ratio that I've read here and elsewhere is 80% / 20% of SVO & RUG. Another is a blend of 20 gal of SVO, 2 gal of Kero & 1 gal of RUG.



Regarding truly running plain SVO, you have to heat the oil over 150 degrees for it to spray properly. I read this on the journey to forever website:



"The best systems use two tanks, one for SVO and one for diesel or biodiesel. Start up the engine on biodiesel/diesel from one tank while the SVO in the other tank is heated to at least 70 deg C (160 deg F) using the engine coolant and/or electric heating. Once it's warm enough, switch the fuel supply to the SVO tank -- and then back to biodiesel/diesel several minutes before shutting down. This flushes out the fuel system and prevents cooling SVO from clogging the injectors and filters. Extra upstream filters should be included. "



I'm not authority. I'm just doing tons of reading on all this and basically trying to find my way like everyone else. I hope this helps!

 

[mhenon]

The problem here is for those of us with a 24 valve/ VP44 engine. Heating the oil to 150 deg is probably going to kill the pump real quick.

I've read where adding ethanol to the oil (like 10%) will lower that temp requirement by half. Bosch, however, has a strong warning against using "any" alcohol to the fuel. Some sort of delamination inside the pump. Kind of a catch 22.

Mike

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

One thing I've seemed to notice is when you mix diesel or gasoline with WVO the added fuel seems to settle toward the bottom over time. It's probably heavier than the WVO and even though you mix it well the viscosity tends to differentiate based on weight of the liquid. I base this on my observation that when I fuel up with about 20-30% WVO the tank starts off burning pretty clean but gets smokier in the mornings and also smells stronger of WVO when warmed up the more I get towards the end of the tank.



Something to think about.



Vaughn

 

[67guzzler]

Vaughn -- were you referring to the DSE mixture or just general blending?



The DSE system recommends you go with Kerosene and Gasoline in ratio's of 20 / 2 / 1 in gallons, plus about 15 oz. of the Diesel Kleen and about 3. 5 oz. of the DSE additive.



I wonder if this combination will be more stable than mixing WVO / SVO with #2. I'm suggesting this because from reading on some other boards regarding blending many say that you have to use Kerosene and Gasoline for the mixture to stay stable. I don't think that #2 diesel with WVO / SVO will mix very well OR stay mixed and be stable after time even if it's initally mixed.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Just talking about WVO JGann, I have no experience with DSE mixture. The settling out or separation isn't that significant though but it does seem to happen in my truck. When driving I look for potholes or take a few fast curves to keep it sloshed up good

 

[DSullivan]

where can you find an electric heater for the tank so it will warm up the extra tank while driving? then be able to plug in at night would be nice.

 

[BPINE]

where can you find an electric heater for the tank so it will warm up the extra tank while driving? then be able to plug in at night would be nice.

Here you go. Go to oil preheaters from here.

http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=/egnsearch.asp&N=400105

 

[EricBu12]

Jgann,



I have the DSE kit and tomorrow I hope to get a barrel of WVO (50 gal)... You might have seen my station on the other thread...



In the DSE Blend of 20 gal. wvo and 2 gal kerosene (10%), (can optionally do 20% diesel) , and 1 gal. RUG (5%) and 15 OZ PS cetane boost and 3. 5 oz DSE additive..... Says is supposed to be good down to 30 deg... .



Now, If I take that mixture, and mix THAT, with #2 diesel so it would make 46 gallons total, (50-50 mix), they say it should be good enough for almost any winter temp...



I assume the RUG and the DSE additive is to make the Glycerin stable for burning and to prevent gelling as well as the Kerosene... ... So, add that to 50% #2 diesel, it should be good down to 0 deg. or so right?



For lower temps, They suggested add 5% kerosene for every 10 degree below 30 deg. ... so that is 3 gallons of kerosene... or 6 gallons of Diesel (for the optional way)... makes to 0 deg..... So if you have like 20 gallons added to that origional mix, Seems like it is very much lower than 0 deg. rating... Like -10 or so... .



When I do my mix, I have several glass jars I am going to put in the freezer and in a chest fridge to test at 0 deg. , and 30 deg...



also the test at those temps will be the DSE mix... . full strength DSE,... . 50/50 mix... . and 75% diesel / 25% WVO-DSE ... . and see what the mixtures do in the different temps.



Will post my results when I do it... .



What do you think?

 

[67guzzler]

Eric --



Everything you say above sounds good.



Here are some thoughts... .



From everything I've read the RUG and the Kero are the key ingredients in fighting injector coking and sticking rings. It's my personal belief that the KERO and the RUG are the extra insurance towards getting a complete burn of the glycerin and the free fatty acids. The Diesel Kleen also helps ensure this. By extrapolation and inference (i. e. reading between the lines and reading the DSE manual), I've loosely come to the belief that the DSE additive helps more with water dispursion and suspension than assuring a complete burn but it's still important. It might also help with the burn but I'm not too sure.



All these thoughts come from (alot of) reading as I'm not a chemist. The basis for my support of RUG and Kerosene comes from reading the groupee and the biodiesel now boards where people blended with WVO / SVO and ONLY #2 diesel and had gunk / film / carbon problems. Those who blending with WVO / SVO and RUG only (80% / 20%) or a WVO / SVO and RUG & KERO didn't have as many problems with injector clogging and mysterious filming of the tanks and fuel systems.



This is just from reading posts and is NOT a scientific study.



So -- what does this mean to me?



I'm planning to go a little heavy on the Kerosene in the blend. I'm looking to run 15% to 20% Kerosene even though I'm in a warm weather climate. I'll still run the 5% RUG too. There is so much lubricity in the WVO / SVO that if you stay under the 25% with the KERO you should be fine as the DSE manual states. But for me, I'm NOT going to substitute the #2 diesel in double the quantity for the Kerosene as they suggest. I don't think it will reduce the viscosity and help the burn the same way as the Kerosene from what I've read elsewhere. I also don't think it will help keep the mixture as stable (mixed) as the KERO will.



Now -- As for mixing this whole DSE blend with #2 diesel -- The DSE manual states that if you make the blend to their specifications you should have no problem. I have no first hand knowledge that this is true but it seems to me that it can't hurt and can only help.



I hope this helps. As I said, I ain't from Germany, didn't run alternative fuels in the war and I'm not a scientist. This is just what I've come up with from reading TONS of posts from all sides of the blending argument.



Some Observations:



I've noticed that traditional home transesterification proponents will tell you that the only way to go is to remove the glycerin and free fatty acids and make true biodiesel. Those who run WVO / SVO only will tell you that the only way to go is to heat the oil to 130 to 150 degrees. But both these positions reflect people who have substantial investment in their process either in making a processor or modifying their vehicle. In other words, they're biased and it's very understandable. But that in and of itself doesn't make blending impossible.



The bottom line is that the fuel needs to have the proper viscosity and have the correct properties to ensure a complete burn and not leave residue. My guess is that the WVO/SVO, KERO, RUG, Diesel Kleen & DSE additive make for a good combo to try if you want to get into blending. I think it's better than just throwing WVO / SVO in your tank and hoping it will slosh with the existing #2 diesel. I think that's where people can run into troubles.



But what do I know? I'm not a scientist.



Not sure if this rambling post helps but it's a snapshot of my views. Good luck and please report back your results and thoughts.

 

[EricBu12]

Jgann,



Well I got my barrel of oil... . but one little hitch.....



The place where I got the oil collects oil from alot of different restaurants so there is alot of different oils in it, canola, peanut, soy and even some of the heavy solid oils... . they poured the oil hot (55 gal. ) and I am assuming that when it cools, the other oil wil solidify on the bottom and I can draw off the good oil to my processor...



I paid $75 for 55 gal. . thats $1. 36/gal.



They thought that there might be about 20% of the solid oil so that leaves 44 gallons and that relates to $1. 70/gal. ... . Still better than $3. 20/gal. diesel.....



I plan on doing the DSE mix... with the Kerosene at 15% and maybe a little more #2 like 5% and the other stuff... ... then blend 50/50 in the truck for the winter weather (Salt Lake City)...



This 110 gallons total should last me about 4 months!! ..... I drive truck for a living so I am only home once a week... .