Brake frustration rotors hot

[MAshley]

So all of this started when my wheel bearing on the front right gave out, just as I was pulling off the side of the road the brake pedal lost its normal pressure and mostly went to the floor, maybe 5 mph at the time.

So Towed it home, fixed the wheel bearing, decided to do both front at the same time. The slide hardware on both was fine no issue put it back together and went for a drive, Right front was hot to the touch not burn your hand hot but not something you want to hold your hand on, Drivers side was pretty warm but could hold my hand no issues.

So I pulled the passenger side caliper thinking maybe binding, opened the bleeder screw and pushed the pistons back ... Same outcome.

Ordered 2 rebuild kits + new hoses + pistons, seals. Installed it all Honestly the insides looked good in the calipers and the pistons looked decent as well. But it was all cheap. I tied using a hone on the cylinder walls but the tools was junk honestly. But in any case there was no rust or gouging in the walls. Replaced all of the fluid with Dot 4. Yup same outcome hot rotors.....

So went to Napa 2 new rebuild calipers.. decided to install new pads too, stock ones had 125K miles on them plenty of pad left but I was there so ... 2 new rebuild calipers, new pads.... bleed the calipers again... didn't take much to get clear no bubbles seeing as I just replaced all the fluid.. Go for a drive .... yup rotors are hot yet again hot enough to get steam.

I used a power bleeder to bleed the brakes, RR LR, FR, FL order.
Old fluid was a medium tan, think new motor oil color.
All the fluid was pushed out via the rear calipers, there was a little bit of I recon you call it sludge or residue that I soaked up best I could out of the reservoir

Initial bleeding took about 1 and 3/4 of the 32 OZ bottles, caliper exchange tool the remainder of the second bottle.

Every time I bleed it, then used the pedal to seat the pistons, then bleed any remaining air out.

With no caliper the hubs tuned decently, maybe 3/4 turn after giving it a whirl
After caliper piston seated took about 2x the amount to turn, slight drag but not locked.

So would bleeding by pumping the brake pedal make a difference?
I got the reservoir really low before adding more fluid to keep from mixing.
IS there some sort of other thing I need to bleed?
Ideas?

2006 3500 with manual and pac brake so it's easy to test drive with little no to usage of the service brakes.

Frustrated is putting it mildly.

Sorry for the long rant.

 

[Missouri Mule]

How long are your drives and how much are you using your brakes?

Your truck is old enough (I have read other 3rd gen having the same symptoms) that your rubber pressure hose/brake line that attaches to your metal one has deteriorated inside. When the fluid gets hot from braking the inside of the rubber brake line collapses keeping the brake fluid from returning to the master cylinder and keeps your brake(s/pad(s) applied.

 

[MAshley]

Already replaced the hoses, and they were fine to start with And in my test drives I never touch the service brakes between the manual and exhaust brake id's easy to do a 3 mile trip the fronts are hot to the touch and rears are bone cold.

 

[petersonj]

So all of this started when my wheel bearing on the front right gave out, just as I was pulling off the side of the road the brake pedal lost its normal pressure and mostly went to the floor

It is possible that the front brake piston or piston seal in the master brake cylinder bottomed out during the brake application. If the piston or seal was damaged, the piston may not be returning all the way. If this is happening the seal would not return past the compensating port, thus trapping brake fluid in the front brake circuit.
Thermal expansion alone would cause a small application of the brakes.



The fingers in the attached photo are pointing to the compensating ports.

- John

 

[Tuesdak]

Another place to look: Any restriction like a clogged filter on the return line from the hydrobooster can prevent the brakes from releasing. At this point you may as well test the hydrobooster to make sure it's releasing and/or not self applying the brakes.

 

[MAshley]

John ... yeah never thought about that your right the system may have taken a big hit when the tire was trying to leave the truck. Or maybe I intorduce air and or debris when bleeding AKA I was trying to drain the reservoir at one point in time.
Hmmmmmm Napa new master cylinder I recon... I hate throwing parts at an issue.

 

[MAshley]

Another place to look: Any restriction like a clogged filter on the return line from the hydrobooster can prevent the brakes from releasing. At this point you may as well test the hydrobooster to make sure it's releasing and/or not self applying the brakes.

As far as I know its powered from the steering pump and no filters that I know of. I did check the Booster steps in the manual and everything seems to be legit.

 

[petersonj]

I hate throwing parts at an issue.

I agree with that. With the help of another person you may be able to determine if there is action at the compensating port. Remove the filler cap from the master cylinder. Watch for any movement of the brake fluid while your helper lightly taps the brake pedal (engine off). With very little movement of the piston, the primary seal will pass by the compensating port, thus stirring the fluid in the reservoir. It may be difficult to observe with the small viewing area through the filling hole.

If you can detect any motion, then the master cylinder is probably okay.

- John

 

[BigPapa]

Just to clarify, you're making a 3 mile test drive, never touching the brakes even to come to a complete stop, and they're still getting too hot to hold your hand on them?

 

[AEdelheit]

Have you checked the wheel bearing itself to make sure you did not get a bad replacement? A tight bearing can build a lot of heat quickly.

 

[MAshley]

Yes I have a pacbrake and manual transmission so not hard to drive a few test miles, also live in the middle of nowhere which helps. I thought about the bearing but the heat is at the outer edge of the disk, with the hub area cold. Also on jack stands I can feel the drag, remove the caliper and it takes was less to rotate. I will try and verify the movement of the oil but i'm about to the point of RR the master or maybe sell the truck off ... ok maybe not that drastic. I'm going to start from step 1, bleed the master, brakes, ABS then Brakes again. If that dont work ill RR the master.

 

[sag2]

Since you live in the middle of no where here is a test you can do to verify the master is returning. Just crack the line for the fronts at the master and drive again. Any residual pressure will bleed off at the master, but in the event you do need the brakes you would still have full rears and most of the front once you overcome the slight leak you created. You could also do the same thing just by cracking the offending side at the caliper. In any case be very careful if you decide to try it.

 

[MAshley]

Since you live in the middle of no where here is a test you can do to verify the master is returning. Just crack the line for the fronts at the master and drive again. Any residual pressure will bleed off at the master, but in the event you do need the brakes you would still have full rears and most of the front once you overcome the slight leak you created. You could also do the same thing just by cracking the offending side at the caliper. In any case be very careful if you decide to try it.

Well made a few videos.... even with the caliper bleeder open I have drag.

https://youtu.be/u3e3sPXBmT8

https://youtu.be/EU4bguxVpfg

 

[Tuesdak]

Sounds like the hydraulic system is eliminated.

Can you eliminate drag by putting a c clamp on the installed caliper and pushing it back?

What parts exactly have you replaced? All I can think of is "new parts don't mean good parts". Like bearings being made to where something doesn't line up, pads too thick, wrong application, wrong parts in the box, etc.

 

[jhenderson]

Only two things I know of will make the brakes drag with no hyd pressure. Either your rebuild didn't go as well as you thought and the piston is sticky or the mounting hardware is keeping the caliper from sliding freely. Does the piston push back in easily with a short pry? Did you replace all the sliding hardware and use synthetic grease on the sliding surfaces? If so the actual caliper mounts may be worn along with the caliper itself. I replaced both the mounts and calipers at 250,000 on my 04. It made a world of difference.

 

[MAshley]

Well... I replaced the rotors today just to eliminated that and verified the bearings again so all of that is verified bleed the brakes. And they won't let go of the rotor even if I open the bleed screw it still won't release. Unless the calipers needed the hydrolic system to retract... the napa rebuilt calipers are junk. I have zero miles and once the pistons seated against the pads game over. Thoughts?

 

[seafish]

Did you try cracking a front brake line line at he MC to see if that relieves pressure on that caliper??

If not yet, try it...it is a simple and effective test...if the caliper "relaxes" again, you have a problem with the MC, rebuilt or not!!

 

[B.G. Smith]

The calipers do not retract, they just relax when you release the brake pedal. It is normal for the drag to be so tight that it is difficult to turn the rotor with the wheel removed. Some heat is normal and some difference in heat from side is not unusual. There is a difference between a master cylinder for disc brakes and one for drum and shoes. (or at least there used to be) It amounts to a little valve in the master cylinder that kept minimal pressure on the system on drum type brakes. Hope you get it worked out. bg

 

[MAshley]

I recon maybe the drag I see is normal but it just seems wrong, I did use lots of assembly lube after a good cleaning. Pistons took a little bit of coaxing to go in but once in slid down I did a little testing with air and blocks of wood to simulate pads and both pistons retracted as expected. Maybe I will just drive it maybe they all just need to seat and mate to each other. New rotors, rebuilt calipers, OEM Pads. New hoses and new brake fluid.

 

[MGreer]

I recently replaced my rear rotors, calipers and pads. I took the front calipers off to make sure they are sliding good on the metal guide clips.
I have been checking the rotor temps with an infrared gun after driving. The rear rotors are averaging 105f and the fronts are averaging 130f.

Hope this helps