Braking Question

[RMcCulloch]

No, this is not a Troll.



It is not, however, a purely academic question in view of the weights that a number of us are towing.



The background:



I've gotten two quite different answers (from, of course, two different groups) on the subject of service vs. trailer brakes as the primary source of "stopping" power for our rigs.



One group maintains that the trailer brakes normally do all the work of stopping the trailer because the tow vehicle's service brakes are rarely capable of doing the job of stopping the complete combination.



Another group maintains that the tow vehicle should easily stop the combination because the trailer brakes aren't powerful enough to do the job.



The $64 question:



Is either side right?

 

[EMD Diesel Power]

Originally posted by RMcCulloch



One group maintains that the trailer brakes normally do all the work of stopping the trailer because the tow vehicle's service brakes are rarely capable of doing the job of stopping the complete combination. (quote)





---- I've always beleived this side..... otherwise why would everyone be putting exhaust brakes on the rigs???? Its obvious the service brakes dont/wont hold the full load back.





(Quote) Another group maintains that the tow vehicle should easily stop the combination because the trailer brakes aren't powerful enough to do the job. (Quote)



---- and I wonder how many in this group have wound up at the bottom of the grade in a burning heap???



I've always told people that its no different than a train going down a mountain grade. Consider this analogy. Lose your train (trailer) brakes..... and the locomotives (tow vehicles) sure as H*** aren't goin to hold it back.

 

[Uncle Joe]

Well,here is a test you can do yourself:

Hook up to a trailer that have electric brakes,make sure to load it with at least 5k,turn your brake controller to the minimum setting,take off till you hit 45mph then slam on the brakes,repeat test with the controller set at the proper setting,notice which part of the test you experienced the pucker factor(aka white knuckles syndrome)

 

[RustyJC]

I think the Dodge Owner's Manual offers a pretty good indication when it requires trailer brakes for trailers over 2000 lbs (if memory serves). The implication is that heavy towed loads are supposed to provide their own braking power. I guarantee you, towing at 21,180 lbs GCW (21,500 GCWR), I wouldn't even get on the highway if the trailer brakes weren't functioning.



Rusty

 

[RMcCulloch]

My thanks to all for your replies.



It would seem that the consensus is that both sides are wrong:



1. There isn't a "Primary" set of brakes - both sets are considered necessary.



2. Either set can stop the combination - given enough distance.



Or have I missed something?



As to the proposed test, I've already tried it and the results were inconclusive - no white knuckles either way. (The stopping distance was a bit shorter with both sets. )



Of course, I wasn't pulling "heavy" - only about 11,000# of trailer.

 

[EMD Diesel Power]

Originally posted by RMcCulloch

My thanks to all for your replies.



It would seem that the consensus is that both sides are wrong:





Of course, I wasn't pulling "heavy" - only about 11,000# of trailer.

Heavy for the other brands. A little on the light side for us.



and you are pretty much correct on your conclusion... . the more brakes you have working for you, the better off you are.

 

[CPG]

Its usually best to have the truck & trailer brake almost as even as possible. Out here in California, one cannot have too much brakes on these freeways we have here. There are a lot of places in the Sierra NV. mountains here that one wants as much brakes as possible. An exhaust brake is great, but do not use it in wet weather in the mountains. This is from my experience. Its hard to say when a trailer will lock up. The brake control should be set up just to avoid skidding your trailer which does no good. Of course the heavier the trailer, the more brakeing one will need. One cannot stress the need for not following too close and leaving as much space as possible in front of you, but at the same time out west here its really hard to do. One should drive like they have no brakes and this will allow one to stop faster if an emergency should arise. With over 100,000 miles on our Alpenlite trailer, this has given us some experience on this.

Happy trailering,



Chuck

 

[IWeiny]

Exh brake

The one thing an exh brake really does for you is to save the regular brakes for either:



a) the last bit of stopping at a light (whatever)

b) emergencies



Personally I was more worried, when we added our camper to our rig, about stopping than about if the truck could pull the load. If the truck has trouble we go slow. BUT if the brakes fail we are dead. I have the EGR system to put on and the exh brake is going on. Plus our trailer has brakes on both axles over just one as the "stock" trailer came with.



I have always put a bit more braking on the trailer. I feel it helps keep the load straight. But I don't think either individually will stop you comming down some of the grades I travel.



By no means an expert,

Ira

 

[klenger]

Balance the brakes so that they are each contributing to stop the vehicle they are attached to. Use an exhaust brake on decents and you won't need to use either, unless there is an emergency.

 

[RMcCulloch]

Originally posted by klenger

Balance the brakes so that they are each contributing to stop the vehicle they are attached to. Use an exhaust brake on decents and you won't need to use either, unless there is an emergency.

Well, I have found that, with the Jacobs, it sometimes does help to apply the brakes a bit when coming off a freeway into an exit with a 15 MPH 180 degree turn.



Somehow I "lucked out" (see sig/profile) when I got my truck with the Jacobs.



As stated originally, I'd been trying to balance the two points of view concerning the braking systems. I'd already done the tests that Uncle Joe suggested (truck only, trailer only, both) and, other than the distance involved, hadn't come to any conclusion.



As far as the Jacobs is concerned, it sure did make a "believer" out of me.



Thanks again for the all of the information and advice.

 

[Fireman]

I believe that the trailer brakes should stop the trailer, but it doesn't always work that way. One thing I found out and it is a comfort to know... the service brakes on the new 3G trucks will stop the truck and a heavy trailer. Not fast, but they will stop. They have some impressive brakes.



Fireman

 

[Dean Upson]

I like everything about my '03 but the much improved brakes over my G2's are the most impressive feature.



Dean

 

[klenger]

Just curious if you guys are comparing the G3 brakes to the older G2 trucks with the drum brakes or the 01. 5 and later with the four wheel disk brakes?

 

[Dean Upson]

I am comparing the G3's to the 94 and 98. 5 DRW's that I owned previously. They had drums in the rear. I would imagine that the later G2's with the disks all around would have been better. The '03's have 13. 9" rotors and that should make them the best yet.



Dean

 

[RustyJC]

Having towed the same 36' 13,500 lb 5ver with our 1996 3500 dually and now our 2002 3500 dually, I can guarantee you that, while probably not as good as the 3G, the 2002's all-disc brakes are head and shoulders above the 1996's disc/drum setup for towing applications!



Rusty

 

[CFAR]

I have the EGR system to put on and the exh brake is going on.

IWeiny



What is an EGR system?

 

[IWeiny]

EGR is a company

They offer a "severe service" brake upgrade. Basically it upgrades my front brakes to 1-ton and the rears close to 1-ton.



check out



http://www.earthroamer.com/egr/



Ira

 

[Ian]

Max. rate stop

When I'm travelling at highway speed, have the brake controller set pretty well at maximum.

Last year near Tacoma WA, I had a school bus pull into the space I'd been keeping in front of me, very soon after he came on the brakes.

I was full on with my 1st generation staying away from him, could hear the trailer tires sliding on the concrete road.

 

[IWeiny]

IMHO

locking up the rear brakes is not good! Although I do it alot with the trailer unloaded.



Ira

 

[pdolan]

I make my living hauling around a 24k service trailer to jobsites all over the continent, often through the Rockies. Brakes are a really big deal to me. I now run electric over hydraulic discs on the trailer. I use a 450 Ford for a tractor, mostly because of the size of its brakes (MUCH larger than 350 or 3500) and the gross weight in 4x4.



You are right in concluding that neither are primary, but there is no doubt that drums on either the truck or the trailer are less than ideal. If you are just doing occssional road-speed stops in flat country, it just doesn't matter. If you are going to decend some long grades, as many from hill country have pointed out, and exhaust brake first, discs all over the place second, but drums under these conditions are just plain dangerous, and you will soon find out how much brakes you have left on the other vehicle in the train.



Braking is not just a matter of a little more distance from a little less brake. At some point in a long stop, you exceed the maximum temperature limit of the pad material and you are in deep doo-doo. You/we all need to learn to drive these combinations like a regular tractor-trailer unit. In the class 8 world, using the foundation brakes AT ALL is equivalent to admitting you have failed to plan your descent/stop correctly. You can never have too much brake (since it is now possible to get ABS on your trailer), but you can sure have too little.



Pat